Angela Puca: So yes, today’s talk is going to be on Shamanism and yes, I’m pronouncing it Shamanism because normally scholars say Shaman and Shamanism rather than ‘Shaymin’ or ‘Shaymanism because Shamanism, this pronunciation is closer to the original word where the term comes from, which is from the Tungusic language and it is Shaman. So that’s why normally scholars in the field pronounce it as Shamanism rather than ‘shaymanism.’ Just to explain why I’m pronouncing it this way.

Is there a question? Sometimes I see the screen popping up, so I’m not sure what there’s somebody wants to ask something.

So yeah, as I was explaining in the introduction, I’m doing I’m actually about to finish my PhD in Religious Studies and my PhD was focused on Shamanism with the fieldwork in Italy. And it was on both transcultural and indigenous forms of Shamanism. So I’m really, really fascinated and I’ve been studying for quite a few years now, Shamanism in the Western world, specifically Europe, even more specifically in Italy.

So yeah, how did Shamanism come to be as a system of study, as a subject matter of study? Well, Shamanism basically came from Russian Ethnography in the 19th century and to make it very simple and very easy to follow, basically, it wasn’t like Shamanism was discovered in the 19th to 20th century, it was more like scholars actually acknowledged that there were similar patterns across different indigenous Shamanisms and so they gave it a name basically. And at first, this name was applied to certain indigenous traditions around Siberia and in Russia. And then later on more scholars and more Anthropologists and Ethnographers realised that there were similarities in other places, in places where indigenous people, which is of course another label that we may debate because I do kind of challenge that kind of categorisation.

Yeah, basically scholars came to use the term Shamanism to refer not only to Siberian Shamanism but to other traditions which were practised across the world mainly by indigenous people and that’s how the term came to be, basically. Yeah, it was basically created by scholars, by academics to overlap existing local labels. Because if you go and see what kind of names and what kind of labels are in terms of those indigenous people or people who are believed to practice Shamanism used, these terms tend to be different depending on the place. Every place has its own term for its Shaman and every place has its specific term for Shamanism or that kind of vernacular healing or those kinds of practices. So this is how the category of Shamanism came to be. Now let’s move on to how Shamanism came to the Western world to the United States first and to Europe After that.

Basically, it all started with the works by Carlos Castaneda and Carlos Castaneda was also a PhD candidate at UCLA in Los Angeles and he was studying the use of peyote on the part of Mexican Shamans and he had an encounter which became an apprenticeship with Don Juan Matus, which is the pseudonym that he uses for his spiritual teacher in his books. So he brought his first book which was “The Teaching of Don Juan” which became quite famous and started to popularize the practice of Shamanism in the Western World. As I said, in the United States first and then it became quite popular even beyond the United States and this happened around the 70s, the 1970s. Of course, even the cultural movement that was going around at that time was quite favourable to the sharing of that kind of knowledge and the popularization of Shamanism and these novels, these works on Shamanism.

Then around the 80s another Anthropologist more established Anthropologist because Carlos Castaneda only did his PhD and that was it whereas Michael Harner, not only did he complete his PhD but he was also had quite a long career in academia and quite a few publications and he did fieldwork as well, especially in the Ecuadorian Amazon, mainly to indigenous peoples which were the Conibo and the Jívaro. So these two peoples, then he also studied other forms of indigenous Shamanism from other parts of the world but not directly, not doing fieldwork. And what he thought to have realised was that across different forms of Shamanism there is actually a common pattern, something which he described as core principles which you find across all different forms of indigenous Shamanism. So he basically created a new tradition of Western Shamanism which is called Core Shamanism and he also founded the Foundation for Shamanic Studies which is based upon the idea that there are these core principles across all different Shamanism which go beyond the cultural belonging and these core principles can therefore be applied and practised and endorsed, even by Westerners. And he actually believes that by doing so Westerners could have bettered their lives and get more in touch with themselves, and with nature and basically perform the shamanic journey to obtain knowledge and power, as they say, and healing, of course.

So that’s basically how Shamanism got popularised in the Western world. Through the works of Carlos Castaneda the first and through the works and the tradition of Core Shamanism by Michael Harner.

If we look at Italy which is, of course, my example from my fieldwork but I know from other colleagues that it’s pretty similar across Europe because we, with Graham Harvey and other colleagues published recently a book called “Indigenising Movements in Europe” and yeah, there’s a chapter written by me on the Italian version of this. So yeah, what we find in Europe then is either forms of Shamanism which may be described as transcultural. By transcultural Shamanism, I mean either forms of Shamanism which were born in the Western world like those inspired by Carlos Castaneda and Core Shamanism by Michael Harner, or kinds of eclectic versions of Core Shamanism. He set out a model for Westerners to practice Shamanism. Transcultural Shamanism can be either these forms, which are based on Castaneda and Michael Harner or they can be imported and reinterpreted forms of indigenous Shamanism. So sometimes you can find Andean Shamanism or Siberian Shamanism, so Westerners who practice these kinds of traditions, of course, since they are doing so in their own contexts in their own cultural context and in their own place of birth or the place they live, they have to reinterpret this kind of tradition, to adapt them to their culture and places where they live. So yeah, we have these as transcultural Shamanism and then we have the indigenous or autochthonous forms of Shamanism which are the forms of Shamanism which belong to the place where the people live, basically. So, for example, Andean Shamanism is practised by people in the Andes and Siberian Shamanism is practised by Siberians. Does it make sense so far? Has any of you a question?

It’s pretty difficult for me to see the chart. Can you please fill out your questions maybe one at a time?

Host: I can’t see any indication of people asking questions Angela but it may make it easier for you if people have got a question if they’ve just raised their hand.

AP: But maybe, if they don’t have their mic on maybe you cannot see their hand. I’m not sure.

Host: No you could know if you raise your hand they can be unmuted.

AP: Okay.

Host: Well, it looks like you’re all okay at the moment. You’ve got a question from Tammy who says, what do you think of places like Rythmia on shamanic practices today?

Angela: Pardon?

Tammy: Hi there, sorry and there’s a place in Costa Rica and it’s called Rythmia and they do ayahuasca holidays where there are Shamans in that area. So it’s like a five-star hotel but with Shamans. And people go to take ayahuasca for however long they’re there. Some people can take it for four days some people could stay for two weeks. So I’m just wondering what you think of places like that, that have Shamans but it’s, you know what I mean?

Angela: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, I think it is kind of in line with what I defined as transcultural Shamanism. Yeah, some people, there are actually some scholars – I avoided the term but they call it Neoshamanism instead of transcultural Shamanism. I avoid Neoshamanism because I know it can have negative connotations. But yeah, Neoshamanism or transcultural Shamanism since it is practised by people who do not belong to that culture, sometimes has certain differences from the indigenous forms of Shamanism and one of these differences is called ‘fast spirituality’ which means that you do workshops and shamanic training over the weekend, which happens, I mean quite, a lot if not in most circumstances. You have this kind of shamanic training or shamanic workshops which occur over a weekend. So even people who are busy with work, can go there and have some sort of training in certain shamanic techniques. So I do kind of equate these. I mean it is quite similar to doing specific traits in order to experience to have experiences with ayahuasca or peyote or even just experiences with indigenous Shamans.

So it is part of that transcultural approach to Shamanism. So it’s like you are, for example, a British person but you want to have a taste of Shamanism. So you go on a weekend to get training or you go to Siberia or Costa Rica to have an experience with an indigenous Shamanism, doing it with an indigenous Shaman. Either way, it is sort of stepping out of your cultural belonging and entering into a different culture. And when this happens, on the part of Westerners, often will what this means is that there’s kind of an overlap of certain Western expectations and Western categories over very different cultural ways of doing that kind of thing.

Tammy: Yeah the cultural, like the philosophy of doing this. Yeah, thank you.

Angela: Did I answer your question?

Tammy: Yeah, very much, very much because I’ve watched a few documentaries on it and I always find it strange that someone who can just take ayahuasca, go on an ayahuasca holiday for a week is now a Shaman and to me, it’s like reading Carlos Castaneda. You have to, it’s not you’re not there just for a weekend it’s, you know, it’s like doing your PhD.

Angela: Yeah that is quite a shamanic training including death and rebirth. I’ll let you know when I get to rebirth because now…

Tammy: thank you, thank you.

Angela: Any other questions so far?

Host: A quote from Kevin, yeah, having all the fishing gear doesn’t make you a fisherman.

Angela: Yeah, I guess it’s also fair to say at this point that in Core Shamanism, which is the most popular form of transcultural Shamanism in the Western world, they say that you cannot call yourself a Shaman that you can only say that you are a shamanic practitioner. And they say it is according to what my informants have said – appointed teachers by the Foundation for Shamanic Studies in Italy, they told me that it is out of respect for indigenous Shamans. So they do realise that there is a difference between… well some of them do realise that and others have a different idea. So there are some practitioners who feel that they are doing pretty much the same as a Shaman from the Ecuadorian Amazon would do because the techniques are believed to be the same and even though the context varies they still believe they’re pretty much doing the same thing. But the official version from the Foundation for Shamanic Studies and from Core Shamanism is that as a practitioner of Core Shamanism, you cannot say that you are a Shaman, you can only say that you are a shamanic practitioner out of respect and acknowledgement that what we do in the Western world with different modalities and different contexts makes a difference. So it is important to highlight that, and not everybody believes they are Shamans after a weekend of training, although in my fieldwork I’ve seen that there is this kind of trend that they become teachers, very soon after just a few workshops that they have undertaken. It is a trend that I have seen recurring over and over that I can report.

Angela: Is there any other question?

Host: No, everybody seems to look happy.

Angela: Yeah, another thing I can talk to you about is the differences that have been highlighted in the literature between indigenous Shamanism and the transcultural forms of Shamanism otherwise called Neoshamanism which is, as I said, a label that I don’t prefer but it is used in literature and that’s why I’m mentioning it. So these kinds of differences between indigenous Shamanism and the transcultural forms of Shamanism which occur and are increasing and getting increasingly popular in the Western world are: the first one is universalisation, which means that the practice is considered as a kind of decontextualized. So it is believed that either you perform a ritual in England or in Italy or in a country in Africa. you’re supposed to get the same exact results. So there’s this kind of idea, this universalisation which is not something that you would normally find in forms of indigenous Shamanism because in that case the performer matters, maybe the astrological conditions matter, the specific places, the location where you are from the ritual matters everything matters and might affect the result whereas the model that has been imported into the Western world kind of has, according to scholarship – they highlight this universalisation aspect which means that whatever and however and whoever performs the ritual, since it is the technique what matters the most, you’re supposed to get the same exact results.

Then another aspect that is related to this is called psychologising in literature and it means that it tends to be an element of psychology. It is quite emphasized in these kinds of transcultural forms of Shamanism practice in the Western world because, for example, if you look at works by Sandra Ingerman and with and of course I do have a few examples from the Italian context but there are certain forms of Neoshamanism or transcultural Shamanism which are, somewhat, forms of psychology, like an expanded form of psychology – psychotherapy even, in some cases, where they try and include elements from the shamanic worldview. Even in this case, interpreted from a Western perspective.

And also another element which is reported in the literature that we find in Western Shamanism as opposed to indigenous Shamanism is called sanitising – which means that all the dangers and as are those aspects and trials and rituals which are performed in indigenous Shamanism, tend to be eliminated, they tend to be just dismissed and of course, discouraged. So, for example, the use of entheogens and hallucinogens. Well, there are some indigenous Shamans who would leave you in a cave for weeks without food and water and you have to survive. There are very dangerous, we may say, rituals which occur across different forms of indigenous Shamanism. Of course. they vary depending on the kind of indigenous Shamanism but it is quite a common thing to see very dangerous practices and rituals which the person has to endure in order to become a Shaman and these are not present at all in the transcultural western versions. So this is normally called sanitising which means that it’s Shamanism made safe. We may say so.

Host: So it’s a fluffy Shamanism.

Angela: Well I’m avoiding judgmental terms but it is to make it safe. For example, I have undertaken training in Core Shamanism across my four years of fieldwork. Actually, I’ve been with indigenous Shamans and transcultural Shamanism, Core Shamanism, so I can I have been a participant observer in a wide array of practices. And yeah, for example, what I’ve seen is that when you undertake training, a workshop by the Foundation for Shamanic Studies they make you sign a form where basically, you have to acknowledge that what they are teaching you is not a substitute for traditional medicine. And yeah, I found it interesting because it is a way of safeguarding themselves from possible legal actions. But yeah, it was quite clear through it all that there was a very strong safety aspect which I wouldn’t expect to find among the original Shamans. Because during these years of fieldwork, I’ve also been in Argentina and I’m also connected to the Mapuche Shamans. So yeah, I do have experiences with different forms of Shamanism. And it is interesting to see how they differ but also I want to highlight that what I’m saying is not meant to be a criticism, although it may seem so. It’s not meant to be a criticism of transcultural Shamanism, I think that transcultural Shamanism has value in and of itself. I also think that it is important to highlight certain traits which are clearly different from one form of Shamanism to another. So what kind of bugs me is when transcultural Shamans claimed to be going to do exactly the same thing that an Andean Shaman would do in the forest. These are things that I just don’t like.

And this is something that I talk about in a publication of mine which is called “Scientism and Post-Truth: two contradictory Paradigms Underlying Contemporary Shamanism?” And yeah, it is something that is quite common to find this idea and I think that this it’s due to the Western way our knowledge is built, so to speak. So since we are so imbued with a certain kind of science and we have a certain idea of what is real and what is not real, we tend to have this kind of scientistic rather than scientific, a scientistic approach to reality, where only something that is measurable and repeatable can be deemed to be true. So as a consequence what you see is that even when people are practising Shamanism since they are still embedded in this kind of culture and in this kind of ontology – where things are considered real only if they are repeatable and measurable and somewhat resemble natural science. And its methodology – people tend to want that in Shamanism too. So they want a set of techniques which are going to work quickly, if possible, and they are supposed to get the same results regardless of other conditions which might not be considered measurable, to take into account and into the equation.

Then another aspect that is related to this is called psychologising in literature and it means that it tends to be an element of psychology. It is quite emphasized in these kinds of transcultural forms of Shamanism practice in the Western world because, for example, if you look at works by Sandra Ingerman and with and of course I do have a few examples from the Italian context but there are certain forms of Neoshamanism or transcultural Shamanism which are, somewhat, forms of psychology, like an expanded form of psychology – psychotherapy even, in some cases, where they try and include elements from the shamanic worldview. Even in this case, interpreted from a Western perspective.

And also another element which is reported in the literature that we find in Western Shamanism as opposed to indigenous Shamanism is called sanitising – which means that all the dangers and as are those aspects and trials and rituals which are performed in indigenous Shamanism, tend to be eliminated, they tend to be just dismissed and of course, discouraged. So, for example, the use of entheogens and hallucinogens. Well, there are some indigenous Shamans who would leave you in a cave for weeks without food and water and you have to survive. There are very dangerous, we may say, rituals which occur across different forms of indigenous Shamanism. Of course. they vary depending on the kind of indigenous Shamanism but it is quite a common thing to see very dangerous practices and rituals which the person has to endure in order to become a Shaman and these are not present at all in the transcultural western versions. So this is normally called sanitising which means that it’s Shamanism made safe. We may say so.

Host: So it’s a fluffy Shamanism.

Angela: Well I’m avoiding judgmental terms but it is to make it safe. For example, I have undertaken training in Core Shamanism across my four years of fieldwork. Actually, I’ve been with indigenous Shamans and transcultural Shamanism, Core Shamanism, so I can I have been a participant observer in a wide array of practices. And yeah, for example, what I’ve seen is that when you undertake training, a workshop by the Foundation for Shamanic Studies they make you sign a form where basically, you have to acknowledge that what they are teaching you is not a substitute for traditional medicine. And yeah, I found it interesting because it is a way of safeguarding themselves from possible legal actions. But yeah, it was quite clear through it all that there was a very strong safety aspect which I wouldn’t expect to find among the original Shamans. Because during these years of fieldwork, I’ve also been in Argentina and I’m also connected to the Mapuche Shamans. So yeah, I do have experiences with different forms of Shamanism. And it is interesting to see how they differ but also I want to highlight that what I’m saying is not meant to be a criticism, although it may seem so. It’s not meant to be a criticism of transcultural Shamanism, I think that transcultural Shamanism has value in and of itself. I also think that it is important to highlight certain traits which are clearly different from one form of Shamanism to another. So what kind of bugs me is when transcultural Shamans claimed to be going to do exactly the same thing that an Andean Shaman would do in the forest. These are things that I just don’t like.

Host: Angela I see this warm picture…. sorry one question. Is shape-shifting part of Shamanism and how do they achieve it?

Angela: Yes, shape-shifting is part of Shamanism but that is not something they found in the fieldwork that I conducted. So I don’t really have a direct experience of it. But I know that my supervisor Suzanne Owen has worked with indigenous tradition which was also performing this kind of shape-shifting. But it’s not something right to come across in my research. I do know from reading literature that there is this component and let me think, there is an Italian Shaman because something that I haven’t mentioned is that, although this may open quite the debate, one of the theses in my thesis. One of the main arguments in my thesis is that there can also be forms of indigenous Shamanism in the Western world and that was during my fieldwork I encountered a form of vernacular healing which, in my research, I argue to be a form of indigenous Italian Shamanism. Yeah, and we can go into details on that if you like but this was just a premise to say that I encountered this woman in the countryside around Turin. And I spent a few days with her with her and her family and she was into shape-shifting. That’s why I recalled this experience because otherwise, it wasn’t something that I really came across as much.

But yeah she was talking about certain rituals where she would shape-shift into her animal guide and her spirit guide. I didn’t witness any of that, I didn’t even participate in a ritual where there was shape-shifting but I have reports from people with whom I participated in rituals performed by this Italian Shaman and they said that they literally saw the person morphing into that animal. But I didn’t personally attend that. The only thing that came close to that was an experience with Core Shamanism when it was over a night and there was a bonfire. And there was an outer circle of people who would play drums and rattles and the inner circle would be of people who had to embody the spirit guides that they had met during the shamanic journeys we had performed during that day. And so and then of course we would switch places. So if at first, you were in the inner circle then on the second round you would be playing the drums and the rattles and the other half of the group would be at the centre doing this kind of ritual. And on that occasion, there were people who started to behave like their animals. So, for example, you could tell that there were people who had seen, in their shamanic journeys, a bird and they would start moving like a bird, or people who had seen a serpent and they would sliver. But I didn’t actually see them transforming into that specific animal, just behaving and sort of embodying through gestures and dances that specific animal that they had encountered in the shamanic journey. So I only have reports from other informants who participated in the rituals performed by this Italian Shaman and she strongly claims that attribution is in the indigenous Italian Shamanism. Yeah, so there are reports of these kinds of things. Yeah, what was the question again, sorry? I’m not actually…

Host: The question was, is shape-shifting part of Shamanism?

Angela: Yes, the answer is yes.

Host: And how is this achieved? I think the question is referring to whether it is a physical change or is it a change in the mind as a result of ingestion of infusions or whatever that allows the person to believe they have shape-shifted.

Angela: That’s a very interesting question and I do have the answer to that. Well, at least I can try. Yeah, I guess the question itself sort of implies a Western understanding of shape-shifting. So because we tend to, as I explained earlier, have a certain way of constructing reality as Westerners and to see what is real and what is not real and what is the mind and what is outside of the mind. So there are forms of indigenous Shamanism, of course, it depends on the tradition, to generalize I can say that like, for example, drawing on my experience with this Mapuche Shaman the idea is that there isn’t really a separation between what occurs in the mind and will occur outside of the mind. The way reality is experienced is through a very different lens when it comes to these types of Shamanism. So it’s not really my mind doing something and something which is in experiences which are outside of it, it’s more entering an altered state of consciousness whereby you do enter a different state of reality Castaneda calls it non-ordinary reality. So it is a way for you to pierce inside this non-ordinary reality. In other cases they describe it, maybe in a similar way as Buddhist-described enlightenment, I guess. So the idea is not that you have to enter a specific place or enter a specific mindset but it is more like waking up to a state of reality where those kinds of things are ontologically possible. So does it makes sense?

Host: Yes thank you, that makes sense.

Angela: If it doesn’t just tell me.

Host: Does anybody else have any questions? I’m not sure if Tammy had a question, or if she was twitching. Yes, she does. I can’t unmute her.

Sorry, I’ve got another one because it is a fascination. Subject not just necessarily just the Shamanism point but being Italian did you have any interactions with the Strega?

Host: I was going to ask the same question.

Angela Yes, I actually have a video on my channel called, something like a title like The Real Strega Tradition. Strega in Italian.

Tammy: It’s the word for a Witch is it not?

Angela: yes Strega is the word for Witch. I think it’s quite popular among Italo-Americans because they try to sort of find the Strega tradition as they call it or Stregheria which was a Wiccan-based form of witchcraft which claims to have roots in Italian traditions. Yeah, in Italy Strega just means Witch. So there isn’t really a Strega tradition but there are lots of vernacular Witches which I have studied a lot in my research and as I said, a specific tradition within Italian witchcraft is what I have defined and explained why – I have defined in my PhD as the indigenous Italian Shamanism because this is a centuries-old tradition of vernacular healers which you find in the countryside, even in the cities, but it’s more common in the countryside. And they have these specific gestures which are called Segnature and these Segnature are practised across Italy but it’s like every region has a specific specialisation, we may say. So like in Campania, my home region, these vernacular Witches tend to cast or remove the evil eye. And the evil eye is perceived in broad terms, for example, even a persistent headache may be seen as the evil eye and by performing this kind of Segnature, they would heal your headache, for example.

There are other regions where they cure sprains and also there are specific terms for certain illnesses like there’s St. Antony’s fire and I have to think of the translation because, of course, in my mind, it’s in Italian. But yeah, there are a set of illnesses which are healed and cured by these vernacular healers which used to be very concealed and they didn’t really say anything about what they were doing. There was traditionally one for each town and it’s the kind of thing that everyone knows of but they wouldn’t openly say oh, that’s the Witch of the town. No, it wasn’t like that but it was like, oh there’s the woman who will cure your sprain, go to her. There’s the woman who cures herpes and things like that. So this would be the more traditional form of Italian witchcraft which you’ll find still across Italy and of course, now there are certain things which have changed especially thanks to being on the internet. Yeah, a lot of things have changed but it has been present for centuries and it is still there, it’s kind of an underground religious practice.

Tammy: Yeah, I don’t know but apparently, I know a couple who are two people that say that they practice it.

Angela: The Italian witchcraft?

Tammy: Strega.

Angela: Are they Americans?

Tammy: No, English.

Angela: Is that you, Jennifer Uzzell?

Jennifer: Hi.

Angela: Hi, Jennifer, thank you for being here.

Jennifer: Okay, two questions. I think they’re connected actually. The first one you were saying, very rightly, about this totally different way of looking at the world between Westerners and indigenous practitioners and that our dualism, I suppose, even amongst shamanistic practices in the West where we divide things into what is real and what isn’t real in a way but most of the cultures actually don’t. And my first question is, whether the fact that Core practitioners in Western Europe have this distinction is making a difference, do you think, to what they experienced and how they experienced Shamanism. And the other question which is connected to that I think when you were talking about the sanitization and the removal of danger from Core Shamanism, whether that is restricted to the practices or whether it’s also connected to what people experienced? So for example in indigenous Shamanism what people encounter is very often terrifying and genuinely dangerous whereas in Core Shamanism very often what is certainly in a lot of cases, what is presented is in terms of self-development and reconnection with the other in a way that is entirely positive and helpful and I just wondered if you’d come across, in your research, anything, any comments about how the different ways of looking at things the different worldviews influence what people are actually experiencing?

Angela: So the first question is whether the different way of approaching reality on the part of Westerners will affect their shamanic experience wasn’t it?

Jennifer: Whether the different worldviews of what constitutes reality, whether that is affecting how they’re experiencing Shamanism?

Angela: Yes, the answer to that, I think, is yes because the way you construct your world is going to affect the way you experience AKA construct your practice. Because everything that we absorb and experience needs to enter a certain framework. So if the framework we have as a worldview it’s very much different or it’s a certain kind that will reflect on how the experience will be perceived in that way I’m really Kantian. So the idea that reality, in and of itself, is the only reality we can perceive is through our senses and through our perception, through our worldview. So yes, I think that it is always a relation between our experience and the framework that we allow the experience to be absorbed and understood into. Yeah, I think it’s kind of unavoidable, that this would affect their practice. But what was this the second question?

Jennifer: The second question was really a case of whether what people are experiencing in the West is usually presented as something very positive and very safe and I’m not talking about the mechanics of Shamanism, I’m talking about what people actually experience while they are journeying, that in the West, not always, but very often it’s presented as self-development and it’s presented as something that’s very positive and safe and that people should be doing to reconnect with the other. Whereas in indigenous practice, as I understand it and from what I’ve read, very often what people are encountering are things that are very dangerous and that they need to be trained to deal with. And I just wondered if that was your experience as well of the difference between Core Shamanism and Indigenous Shamanism?

Angela: Yes and this is actually a difference. Yes, thank you for this question because it allows me to say something about my fieldwork. So, yeah like, for example, in Core Shamanism which is the epitome of transcultural Shamanism and the most popular form of transcultural Shamanism in the West, they openly said, during the training that I’ve undertaken, that it is safe to do a shamanic journey. So because we were about 30 participants or so and there were some people who were scared before their first or second shamanic journey that something bad might have happened the teacher reassured everybody that what you will encounter, the spirits you will encounter during your shamanic journeys will only positive ones and will only give you positive experiences. It won’t be dangerous in any sort of way. So I can safely say that that is the point of view of Core Shamanism because they literally said it upfront and during the lecturing part of the training/workshop.

And this was also one of the arguments by one of the Italian Shamans with whom I have had experiences with because she claims to be the last Italian Shaman of a hereditary tradition, and what she told me was that when she was sixteen her grandmother, she is from the South but now she lives in the North, her grandmother basically brought her into the woods and left her, at age sixteen, alone for weeks and she was tied to a tree and she had to menstruate and defecate on herself and she was without food and water. And she said that eventually she was able to untie herself and she had to encounter all the animals and beasts in the surrounding area and she had to survive that. And yeah she said that it was an intentional way of dehumanizing which was part of her initiation. And when she was explaining that to me she was she felt really strongly against Core Shamanism and forms of transcultural Shamanism and one of the things she kept saying to me, while I was at hers, was that it is not the same to imagine a cave and being in a cave or even being left alone in a cave with your thoughts and your shadows and everything that will surface from your mind and all your fear. And yeah, she explained to me how her initiation worked and it was really terrible and dangerous and eventually she was able to untie herself and she didn’t even find her grandmother to welcome her but there were a few other people who brought her to a certain place you do other things which were part of our initiation process.

So yeah, I guess, that even in the Italian case, we may say that the difference in terms of the danger, the danger of certain practices versus the safety or how safe certain practices are made, it is present when you compare forms of indigenous Shamanism if we accept my way of labelling these practices and transcultural Shamanism which are both present, according to me, in Italy. So even in that case, you can see that there’s quite a difference. And this was not the only report because then I had encounters and did interviews with other Italian Shamans and they reported very similar struggles, and some of them even said that they were on the edge of dying almost before they became Shamans and they got granted certain gifts. So yeah, I guess the difference is really there.

Jennifer: Thanks.

Host: Thank you that I’m not sure if it’s a comment or a question but it says, a personal mental and emotional state, before entering the journey will produce some kind of risk for trauma surely. E.G. unlocking repressed memories, etc. Do you have any comment on that?

Angela: I’m not sure what he or she means.

Audience Member: Okay surely if you have a certain mental state, emotional state, depression any kind of situation before you go into the journey that would obviously unlock lots of things in the mind but that, you know, if you’ve got anything repressed that will come back. It’s sort of a follow-on to your previous question in that there are dangers. You may have things repressed but not aware, you go in, experience and it’s bad for you. Isn’t that sort of the kind of danger you were sort of talking about?

Angela: Do you mean when I was talking about indigenous Shamanism or the transcultural, Western forms of Shamanism?

Audience Member: Well, the fact that the Western one saying is all safe. But that’s assuming the person going in is in a good position mentally and emotionally to do so.

Angela: So yeah, if we’re talking about Core Shamanism, they think the first thing that they will make you do is a journey to the lower world to encounter your spirit guide. So they believe that when you have retrieved your spirit guides then all the other journeys will be safe because that spirit guide would sort of protect you along the way. They never really mentioned this kind of thing that you are mentioning having. Because they were like… I’m trying to remember my fieldwork and there were a few people who were coming from a place of trauma, I do remember distinctively an attendee who recently lost her son. And yeah she was sort of trying to, I guess, also seek comfort in trying these shamanic experiences. Yeah, when she openly talked about it nobody really mentioned any possible danger coming from that. So yeah, either I have not encountered it or its left unacknowledged or maybe they just honestly believe that the kind of shamanic journeys you do, according to the Core Shamanic techniques, do not really present any form of risk even when you are in a certain state. Unless you were asking my point of view. I’m replying from the Core Shamanic point of view.

Jennifer: It’s worth saying as well, just briefly, there that within Shamanism it may well not be, certainly the Core Shamanic courses, there are places – I mean from my tradition which is OBOD The Order of Bards Ovates and Druids, in their material – well they don’t call it Shamanism but there’s quite a lot of shamanistic practice in there and certainly meditative techniques and there is something right at the beginning of that that warns against doing that if you have any sort of mental disorder or history of extreme depression or trauma, there are actually warnings in there. So at least it is acknowledged there’s a potential danger.

Audience Member: Yeah, in my altered state – I’ve been using altered states since a child and when I’m in a very bad place it’s made far worse because I’m doing stuff internally. And those that I’ve sort of coached a little bit who said well, can I use this to help remove depression and so on and I’ve sort of said try other means first. You need to get a bit better place in your head before you can sort of work that way. Perhaps with the indigenous, it’s a completely different experience to the Western forms, you know, the new stuff. So yeah, there’s a difference between the two, I think, in that regard.

Angela I’m trying to think as a Core Shamanic practitioner or a transcultural practitioner. I mean if you were in a place where you couldn’t journey yourself they would say that you have lost part of your soul and so somebody would help you by performing a soul retrieval ritual. And by doing so they believe that they may help you heal from that mental state and that mental condition. So sometimes they don’t work just on their own – but are collaborating with other practitioners and they perform shamanic rituals together and this will help in case you have an issue of this sort. I did undertake training, which was advanced training on the extraction technique and we were paired. So it was the idea was you are not able to see what’s wrong with your body, so there’s somebody else you have to work with, and we were working in pairs and each one was working on the other to both identify what was wrong in terms of health and to help the healing of the other person.

So this applies also when it comes to mental health issues and in that case I guess it might be more a case that a transcultural practitioner would resort to soul retrieval because they believe it when you have trauma it means that part of your soul has been lost and is stuck in the place where the trauma occurred. And here’s something that you find also in indigenous Shamanism. So yeah, maybe in the Neoshamanism it tends to be more psychologized and there’s more of a psychological component with it. But the idea is pretty much saying so that if you have mental health issues they think you have lost part of your soul and that part of your soul has to be retrieved in order for you to be whole again. And once you are whole again then you will not experience those kinds of states, mental states any more.

Host: Okay Angela that’s lovely, thank you. Okay folks we’ve reached but we’ve exceeded our time for this session. Angela that was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much.

Angela: Thank you, I hope that was explanatory enough. Certainly not exhaustive.

Host: No, obviously if people have got any questions for you that they haven’t come up with so far, I think I’ve got a note of your YouTube thing as www.youtube.com/Angelas symposium.

Angela: Yes even if you search for Angela’s Symposium you will find it. There’s also an interview with Jennifer on Druidry which is quite popular on my channel.

Host: Okay, well thank you once again and thank you, all of you for attending and for you’re valuable input, and we shall love you and leave you until the next session.

Angela: Thank you for inviting me it was lovely to be here.

Streamed 27 Jun 2020