Angela Puca AP: Hello everyone I’m Angela and welcome back to my channel. Today here I have a special guest on my channel, Dr Suzanne Owen. one reader in the Study of Religions at Leeds Trinity University and also my PhD supervisor. So I’m very lucky to have Suzanne as my PhD supervisor, she’s been incredibly helpful in my journey. Suzanne has published extensively in the fields of indigenous religions and Druidry and I’m very pleased to have her here today to talk about indigeneity and the concept of indigenous.

Dr Suzanne Owen SO: Yes, thank you, Angela. Yes and like most people’s journeys, I did not begin so much with the idea that I’d be researching this as my one of my areas, indigenous religion. I was looking at appropriation of Native American spirituality and when you do fieldwork you come across certain ideas and concerns of the people that you are with and one of the things that was going around was the concept of indigenous and whether the people I was researching considered themselves indigenous and there was quite a lot of debate about it. Because they could see the positive aspects of it, about how people can come together under that label and have a political presence. But then the negative side of it is that it creates a kind of homogeneity between these groups which don’t exist. But I couldn’t focus on it for my PhD because I had to get that done and then so, following that, then I was able to explore these concepts more.

AP: That’s very fascinating. So my first question is what do we mean by the term indigenous and what are the characteristics of being indigenous?

SO: It gained international usage through political concerns with people that have been colonized in parts of the world where they were under pressure or threat. I often from internal sources, meaning the governments, and the dominant cultures around them and they were considered endangered and needing international recognition and support and that is how it became popularized. So it definitely had an association with groups that were colonized. This, of course, narrowed the meaning of indigenous because indigenous itself is quite a broad idea that something is native to a land or has its origins in a particular place or location.

But it then gained a very specific meaning through this international usage and thus that means that people, who are originating from Europe and are native to a place in Europe, were excluded from this meaning because they were not those that were being threatened they were actually part of the people who were threatening and colonizing. And so that is why this term is usually not used in Europe to describe the Europeans although some nationalist groups have picked up on this and have tried to use it, such as the British National Party at one time included it in their manifesto, some years ago, and that they were the indigenous Britons. And this is quite problematic because it was a usage that was inappropriate or considered inappropriate and it actually diminishes then, the real problems and sufferings among the people who have been identified as indigenous. So the idea that Briton’s, you know, white Britons under threat is offensive, to consider that.

AP: And this is in terms of indigenous people. But you would think there would be a difference between indigenous people and indigenous religions.

SO: Yes, I make this distinction because on the ground, when you’re doing work with different groups, it is not so clear-cut about what is actually indigenous and what isn’t. And many of these groups are also following things like Catholicism or another kind, so we could call it transcultural religion for this purpose. And so like the Mi’kmaq people in Newfoundland and elsewhere in Canada, I think like over 90 percent identified as Catholic and yet they also attend, what might be considered, indigenous events such as the Pow-wow and they’re celebrating indigenous culture or Mi’kmaq culture or pan-indigenous because it’s not just…This was one of the things I came across was that at the Pow-wow it is not Mi’kmaq dances and sort of practices that I saw. What I saw was common to a lot of Pow-wows in North America, among native North Americans. And so one of the things they were debating and we’re concerned about because they were certainly aware that this is not Mi’kmaq per se, so what was Mi’kmaq they were asking themselves, what what is that? And so there’s a lot of sort of self-reflection among indigenous people about the term indigenous and why they’re using it.

AP: So they are using in reference to themselves?

SO: Yes, actually rarely. It is only when it comes to the international context but for themselves they are Mi’kmaq. And one of the people argued that using the term indigenous kind of wipes out these individual cultural groups’ identity and there’s a danger in that. And there was also the danger with the Pan and I call it Pan-Native-American practices like the Pow Wow dances and sweat lodge ceremonies and other kinds of ceremonies that have been adopted by different groups in North America. There is a consciousness that these are not originally Mi’kmaq, although they may have had similar kinds of practices like something like the sweat lodge existed there but the model that they were using was derived from Plains Indians. There’s a lot of this sort of consciousness about it but a lot of people weren’t speaking about it and so when I was writing about it I was very worried about how this would be received. And one of them that, I met at a conference and the Mi’kmaq person said that I was writing what people think but don’t say. But I seem to have survived it and people, some other, sort of, Native American individuals had contacted me to say that they have been observing this as well and it’s something that people are thinking about. About what does it mean, you know, to be indigenous in the local form rather than the international form? And one of the Mi’kmaq, Mi’sel Joe, the Saqamaw which is the traditional chief, said that it is not just you know a description it’s also an attitude. And I picked up on that and tried to distinguish between indigenous religion and indigenous people. Indigenous people can be Catholic or can be some other traditional religion but what does it mean to follow indigenous religion, and if Mi’sel Joe said that is also an attitude, it’s an approach and then that takes away from the ethnic or cultural sort of definitions placed on people. So because I’m aware that indigenous people are not necessarily following indigenous religions, can also follow the indigenous religions are not necessarily followed by indigenous people.

So can a religion itself be considered as a separate category indigenous religion as a separate category and because of this issue of Christianisation and other kinds of religious traditions? And of course, there’s inculturation which was another concept I’d planned to tackle but the subject was big enough as it was. So I never got around to inculturation, which is when a tradition such as a Christian group in Canada might adopt or include indigenous practices from local indigenous groups. And they do this of course in many contexts and not just with Christians but other religions would consciously either include or exclude local practices depending on the, I guess, the nature of the group that’s there and whether they are borrowing or appropriating or excluding and demonising.

AP: So what was your conclusion of what constitutes an indigenous religion?

SO: So I’m following them both Saqamaw Mi’sel Joe’s idea that it’s an attitude but also with great help from the late Vine Deloria Jr. in his book “God Is Red” he actually referred to druid, no he called it Druidism and he said that white Americans who want to become like Native Americans because there’s a lot of romanticism and appropriation, they should instead look to their own cultures but such as Druidism and he implied that Druidry was the indigenous religion of Europe, in Britain and these comments then became central to my argument that, okay so we can regard something like Druidry or other European, I guess pre-Christian or non-Christian groups, particularly those that originate within Europe as indigenous. Even though the people themselves politically cannot be regarded as indigenous people.

AP & SO: Because they are not a minority because they have been colonized.

SO: Well some people might go back to Roman colonization or Norman colonization but we’re all that we’re not colonized, no, not in that sense.

AP: In that sense, it is not a minority living with the people who have inhabited.

SO: That’s right, yeah.

AP: So there is being an inclusion.

SO: Yeah we can say that we are, I mean there are some arguments that you might be able to make with Wales or Scotland or Ireland but I’ll leave that to other debates. But whether, you know, an Anglophone culture is colonizing in some way politically or otherwise culturally but leaving those things aside we are not indigenous people in the political sense.

AP: What are the characteristics that define an indigenous religion? How can we identify a religion as an indigenous religion?

SO: Putting together all the different sorts of characteristics that indigenous people themselves allude to. Obviously, there is a relationship with the land and all of these are tentative they’re all debatable because obviously, some indigenous groups are more nomadic than others. But of course, they still have this relationship with the land and with the environment that directs their travel if they are travelling people. And the Mi’kmaq themselves used to sail between Newfoundland and Cape Breton Island, which is part of Nova Scotia and because of different hunting grounds and other kinds of reasons. So there is a recognition of that but it’s still a very close relationship with the land. Now, of course, this can lead to romanticisations and ideas of primitivism when we, sort of, idealized that. So there’s also, I guess, other aspects to an indigenous religion and I think, you know, the attitude aspect is this; that you always have this respectful attitude towards what has come before is how I’ve phrased it. So it’s a respectful attitude to what has come before and so this can refer to your ancestors, particularly if you’re growing up in a place where your ancestors also lived and respect. And if they’re not then you are respecting other people’s ancestors of the place and of course they talk about respect towards non-human beings like Irvin Halliwell wrote about other-than-human beings when he was trying to refer to these many ideas or concepts of like the Sun, Thunderbird or even stones and they’re often referred to in kinship terms, so Grandfather Stones or Grandfather Sun and all these kinds of kinship relations. So it is a very personal relationship they develop with the other-than-human persons.

AP: So it seems to be very related to the land.

SO: Yeah.

AP: The connection to the land and the ancestors.

SO: Yeah, yeah.

AP: So it is like connecting a religion or a religious form that connects you to your roots whether they be a place or…

SO: Yeah I guess then times like for those that have been relocated, whose roots are you looking at and for them, like I would recommend that they be looking at their own sort of roots about how, you know, their own personal roots but they also have to look and respect those of the place where they are now residing. So having moved to Yorkshire, which I’m not from Yorkshire it is respectful then, I guess, for me, if I had this indigenous attitude is to get to know the land, get to know the people and the sort of… there’s different ways that people can do this but the Otley Chevin is a significant hill between where we are now, at least Trinity University and where I live and Chevin comes from an old Brittonic word which means a ridge Chevin or seven and I’m slowly just to get to know all of these things and names of things and how people relate to them. Ilkley Moor, you know, all the different kinds of legends and stories about giants. And they are bound and when you get to know them that creates a rootedness and I think that is also a way to feel belonging and belonging is a large part of this. It’s developing a sense of belonging through this respectful relationship to…

AP: Belonging to the place?

SO: Belonging to the place, yeah. And you develop that by getting to know the place, the names of the places and how people relate to them.

AP: Can you practice indigenous religions from a place you’re not from?

SO: Yeah this is how you do that. So you need to establish these connections. As well as ancestral and cultural origins as well. So I think, with all people who have moved locations this becomes quite complicated but I think another key element to conscious, becoming conscious of being indigenous or having that indigenous attitude is disruption. And so the people the Mi’kmaq people who don’t really use the term indigenous, ever, are fairly secure with who they are and where they are as Mi’kmaq. It only gets used by people when they are either dislocated or they are wanting to engage with a more international or global issue. And so those that have been disrupted or disconnected from the land are those that are most conscious, I think, towards trying to develop this relationship. So in this way that you might regard some groups of people as indigenous or following indigenous religion but they themselves will not use that term. Because it is so a part of them and it only becomes conscious when that’s disrupted and threatened in some way. So when that life becomes threatened and oppressed or they get moved and relocated, then it becomes conscious about who you are and where you’re from and the way that you related to the land.

AP: So it’s a term that emerges by contrast?

SO: By contrast yes. It recalls something that’s been lost.

AP: This seems to happen with a few religious groups.

SO: Yeah, when it becomes kind of more, rather than looking back as something that’s the past and lost and or losing which is what it sounds like, the way we’re talking now, it can also be a way of looking forward and looking into, many people might use it towards developing a more environmental or animal, you know, including the animals and the trees and rivers and making it more sort of a positive, proactive kind of relationship in order to well I guess there’s an element of preservation included in this attitude.

AP: Which is a tradition of the land and traditions?

SO: Yeah and of course, for indigenous peoples also the preservation of people in cultures.

AP: Yeah, especially when you are, in my knowledge, yeah.

SO: I think this is what’s peculiar to using the term indigenous or even indigenous religion. So it would seem indigenous people are, of course, under threat and have gone through many sufferings but then how can we use that as a religion not that per se but how can we use indigenous religion which might not have those elements of oppression, yeah? As I say it’s not an absolute and it’s all open for debate. I‘ve actually had discussions, of course, with people who might challenge the idea that Druids are indigenous, is an indigenous religion I’ll say, not the people and because they don’t have that kind of community or kinship, close relationship that you might expect or can find among in local indigenous groups and I accept that. But who defines the criteria for indigenous religion? Well, it’s whoever is speaking because it’s not a natural object and this is true with all terms even like the term religion. It is not a natural object so it is something that is created through discourse, and likewise, indigenous people and indigenous religion are also created through discourse.

AP: Because they were basically out over…

SO: Yeah and people, there’s international agreement about what indigenous people are but it doesn’t mean that that is a natural category, it is still constructed for purposes, for certain purposes and the purposes can be good purposes, they’re not all bad purposes. So the good purposes are to really try to help people that are being threatened.

AP: I’d like to thank again Susan Owen for this interview. It was very informative and I’m sure you liked it. So if you did, SMASH like button, subscribe to the channel, activate the notification bell so that you won’t miss anything and stay tuned for all the Academic fun.

Bye for now.

DR SUZANNE OWEN’S CONTACT DETAILS
email: s.owen@leedstrinity.ac.uk
University profile: https://research.leedstrinity.ac.uk/e…

REFERENCES

Owen, S. (2011) The Appropriation of Native American Spirituality, London, New York, Bloomsbury Academic.

Owen, S. (2016) ‘Druidry and the Definition of Indigenous Religion’, in Cox, J. L. (ed), Critical Reflections on Indigenous Religions, London, New York, Routledge, pp. 81–92.

First uploaded14 Dec 2019