Dr Angela Puca AP: If you are interested in Thelema and in the perspective of a contemporary Practitioner on the matter please stay tuned because we have a special guest today.
Hello everyone, I’m Dr Angela Puca and this is my Symposium I’m a PhD and a University Lecturer and this is your online resource for the academic study of Magick, Paganism, Shamanism, Thelema and all things occult. As you know this channel it delivers academic scholarship on the topics that I just mentioned and so far I have only interviewed academics on this channel. But today it is the start of a new day and the start of a new series actually, when I will be interviewing also Practitioners and I thought this would be this could be quite interesting for you to watch so that you can have an Academic and a Practitioner in conversation and it could be a way of picking into even how fieldwork works for academics. When we go on fieldwork and interview Practitioners. How we try and understand how Practitioners define their practices, conceptualise things. So hopefully this will be interesting and please help me in welcoming Georgina Rose also known as Da’at Darling.
Georgina Rose GR: Hello.
AP: Hello Georgina. How are you, first of all?
GR: Doing quite well, it’s a nice morning here, where I live. It’s nice and warm, the summer’s sort of coming through and I’m excited to talk to you about Thelema. I am not an Academic, I am just a Practitioner. So I think it’ll be cool to see both ends of this conversation.
AP: Yes, absolutely. I think it will be fascinating. Would you mind introducing yourself for the audience so that they know you, in case they are not familiar with you?
GR: Of course, I’m Georgina Rose. I go by Da’at Darling on the internet. D-A-A-T like the Sephirah, not like the textile pattern. I make YouTube videos, podcasts all related to Thelema. I’m a practising Thelemite, I’ve been a Thelemite for quite a number of years and beyond Thelema, I explore just kind of wider western esoteric traditions. I’m a Practitioner first and I basically talk about my experiences and what I’ve seen and people who practice and what I’ve sort of read and I just sort of share that knowledge so that it’s accessible because I find a lot of Thelemic resources are not very accessible to new people. So I wanted to try to make that a bit more accessible because that’s where my end is. It’s helping get people to actually practice. So that’s what I do and that’s who I am.
AP: So if people are interested, if there are Practitioners who are interested in a Practitioner’s perspective and are interested in Thelema they can subscribe to your channel, TikTok, Instagram and your social media more generally.
GR: Yeah.
AP: So the first question that I’d like to ask you is how did you get into Thelema?
GR: Yeah, so like most people getting into Thelema, I didn’t first see what Thelema is, I sort of had a gateway in from another occult practice. I find that’s pretty common and for me, what really sort of spurred me getting interested in the Occult is, I was actually looking at like self-help, self-improvement stuff. I was trying to like better myself as a person and I started sort of thinking about religion and I was like, well I was raised Protestant Christian and I was like, this doesn’t really click in my brain. There’s certain things about it that don’t make quite sense to me. So I started exploring ideas and I came across like, folksy, witchy Pagan stuff first. I think that’s a bit more accessible. So that’s what I personally came across first. Like when I went to the public library like, that’s what was there. And then I started looking deeper and deeper and I came across Richard Cavendish’s book “The Black Arts” which is this, a cool book from the 70s. It’s a little… it’s very 70s, I’ll just say that. But it was the first time I heard about Ceremonial Magic and I was like this is cool, I want to do this, how do I do this? And so I sort of went down this like research rabbit hole and I came across Thelema and Crowley and I was like, you know, I kind of agree with a lot of this, I’m sort of philosophically already aligned. And so then I started trying out the rituals, doing things like the Star Ruby and whatnot. It sort of worked, it made sense and so now I’m a Thelemite. And that’s sort of how I entered into it and I’ve just gone deeper and deeper with time and really fallen in love with the tradition.
AP: And what is about Thelema that attracts you the most?
GR: Yeah, so one of the big things is the difference between Thelema and some other western magical traditions is that Thelema you’re doing all the Magick for like, a specific reason and I really like that there’s a strong philosophic underpinning to it. When you’re doing workings in Thelema, you’re doing it with the goal of discovering or getting in alignment with your True Will which is, sort of, your, I don’t want to say purpose in life, I think it’s a bit of an oversimplification but it’s essentially what you’re supposed to be doing with your life to inevitably connect with the divine, right? I like that because what you’re doing has a purpose to it and a goal. I find in Thelema as well, since it’s been around for a while there’s sort of a trajectory you can follow, I mean you don’t have to follow it super rigidly, but it gives a direction and I think a lot of the sort of contemporary, especially the online occult community, it lacks that like underpinning of like, okay so I’m doing these rituals but what is the end? And you’ll notice this and even when we Say Will, which is like a sort of meal blessing thing that Thelemites do, you have to one end and I like that, I like that Thelema has a purpose and a reason because I think without that, I at least, for me, I felt a little aimless. So I was like what am I doing this for and so that’s part of why I really like Thelema. As well, I agree with just a lot of it and I find that rituals are very beautifully structured. I like how they are done for a reason and there’s a sort of formulaic quality to certain aspects of it. So that’s why I am really into Thelema.
AP: And do you practice in a group or by yourself?
GR: I’m mostly solitary but there are times when I do group rituals. Like I know other Thelemites, so I’ve done group rituals but the bulk of my practice is solitary.
AP: Would you, in your experience, do you think that the majority of Thelemites in the contemporary world are solitary or do they practice in groups?
GR: I think the majority are actually solitary. There’s really hard to get numbers on this. I’ve tried so hard to find like, statistics on Thelema. I saw I know Manon Hedenborg White did one estimate and I don’t remember exactly her estimate was about how many Thelemites there but even then like it’s just really hard to get statistics on Thelema because a lot of people are not public about being Thelemites for, you know, fear of backlash or fear of repercussions in their lives because Crowley’s controversial. I think we all sort of know that if you’re familiar with Thelema.
AP: Yes, well, I only did a couple of videos and I got a taste of that.
GR: So a lot of Thelemites were open about it. I know a lot of Thelemites in my city and some of them, like you, would never know. So it’s just so hard to get numbers. I think the bulk are solitary because I’ve seen numbers on like, you know, like online forums about Thelema and I’ve talked to a lot of Thelemites where I would say the majority are not in groups. I think that’s a newer trend though.
AP: That’s why I was… what I was interested in, the fact that there this is a trend that is also present in Paganism and it’s interesting to see that in Thelema as well. Paganism in the wider sense, yeah.
GR: Yeah, it’s definitely a new trend because for a long time I would say most Thelemites were part of a specific group called the OTO. There are a couple of Thelemic groups in the US, there’s not just the OTO but that was the sort of big one. But that’s not as true now and I think that that’s really because of things like the internet and accessibility. I think, much like Wicca in the 90s, right, there’s a lot more accessible material so a lot more people go solitary and as well another reason why I think a lot of people are solitary is less that material thing but also just there aren’t that many Thelemites. So if you live in a smaller area it’s harder to find a local group. So I think it’s a variety of factors but I think the majority are solitary. I think that solitary statistic is rising with time.
AP: Yeah, this is quite interesting and what do you think is the relation that Thelemites usually have with the figure of Aleister Crowley?
GR: Yeah, so this is one that’s going to actually vary depending on who you’re talking to pretty radically. For me, I have a lot of reverence for Crowley. I have my painting semi-ironically, it’s kind of funny to me. I watched Strange Angel and if you’ve ever seen the show…
AP: I’ve seen it, yeah.
GR: A picture of Crowley in his house which no Thelemites actually do that, so I got one just to be funny. But it depends, there are some people who like revere Crowley and see him very, very highly and those who go through the extreme of that spectrum. Some people even sort of mock that perspective in certain ways because they say well, Thelema is about your will, not about Crowley’s will. There’s even a term called Crowlianity which is sort of a pejorative for someone who sees Crowley as like a Jesus figure and really tries to be Crowley, which is not what you’re supposed to do with Thelema. Then there’s the middle perspective which is personally where I fall, right. Crowley was someone who tapped into this current and really began something but he’s not like some infallible Jesus, prophet figure. He’s someone who is a very wise and talented magician but he’s not imperfect or he’s not perfect, excuse me. He is someone who really tapped into the current because Thelema is very much of current. So there’s that perspective and then there’s a perspective that Crowley should be de-centred from Thelema entirely. This is a newer perspective where they’re like basically trying to like pull Crowley out of Thelema, in a way. Those are the people who are the most critical of Crowley and so you see Thelemites along the spectrum, I think. My perspective is probably the more common one you’ll see but there definitely are people on either wing with that one.
AP: Do you think that that evolved over time? Is it like a new development of the perception of Crowley in Thelema or do you think that has always been like that?
GR: It’s a newer development. I find the people on this really far side who are trying to de-centre Crowley, that’s very new. That’s like a this-decade thing. My perspective has been around for a long time and the really highly revering Crowley perspective, you see it mostly with older people that I’ve talked to. So Crowley’s definitely becoming more, I don’t know if criticized the right… more nuanced-ly looked at… I’m not sure exactly how to phrase it but you definitely notice a change in how he’s being viewed when you look at newer people. So it’s interesting and it does vary depending on who you’re talking to.
AP: Yeah, that’s fascinating that you can see a difference between older Thelemites and younger Thelemites because yeah, that could highlight that it is indeed a development or it could be a different generational approach to Thelema, as well. Well, which could also imply that it is a newer development. So yeah, that’s interesting. Another thing that I thought was quite, that really distracts me, as quite interesting is that I noticed that you identify as a Pagan and I was just having dinner last Monday with Professor Ronald Hutton and we were talking about Paganism and I was actually mentioning this, the fact that there are Thelemites that identify as Pagans. And since in Pagan Studies usually, the perspective is that Paganism is an earth-based religion and usually I’d say that Thelema tends to be seen more in the realm of Ceremonial Magick, Western Esotericism. So I’m fascinated by how come you identify as a Pagan, how came to see Thelema as part of Paganism because that could help enrich the understanding of how contemporary Practitioners use the term Pagan and how and why they identify as one.
GR: Yeah, I think it really depends on what you define Pagan as because I’ve noticed the academic definition isn’t always the definition people in the pagan community are running with. I’ve seen arguments that like Pagan equals Polytheism which, in that case, you can sort of argue Thelema is pagan. You could argue the whole, like pagan-community take because Thelema, if you go to like Thelemic groups you’ll notice that there’s a heavy overlap in like events and membership with Wiccan groups and traditional witchcraft groups. And you’ll notice that some Thelemites will like, celebrate the Wheel of the Year or worship other deities and do things outside of Thelema proper. And so I think once you get into like the individual aspect, it gets more complicated. I do think Thelema does not follow the like academic definition of Paganism. I think it really depends on what you’re saying Pagan is. I self-identify as a Pagan because I incorporate Paganism into my Thelemic practice and I share a lot of space with people who are Pagans. So I say I’m Pagan because of the stuff I do that’s sort of outside of the Thelemic ritual, sort of, canon – if you want to call it that. But yeah, whether Thelema is pagan or not is like kind of a debate. I know there’s an article on our Hermetic library somewhere about it that was written by a Thelemic, I think they were a Priest it’s a very interesting one and it just basically lists all the definitions of Paganism and argues is the Thelema this and this and the sort of final answer of the article was well, it depends on what you think Paganism is, if Thelema is pagan or not. Because in ways it is, in ways, it’s not. But it’s not the like traditional academic definition of Paganism by any means. I wouldn’t make that argument.
AP: Well yeah, in on the matter of the academic definition of Paganism. Usually, when Paganism is defined by Anthropologists of Religion, of course, we will talk more about this on the interview that I will do for your channel, where we will talk more the academic perspective. But the academic definitions of Paganism or indeed other religious contemporary practices can change over time. And usually in Anthropology, at the moment, Anthropology Studies is different from the History of Religion because instead of looking at the documents and historical developments and Anthropology tends to study what contemporary Practitioners do and how they define their practices. So now with something like Paganism you have many different views on what constitutes Paganism. So how do you find the definition as an academic when you have such a variety of and such a diversity of definitions? And usually, we use, a methodology that is now commonly used and quite popular among academics is Discourse Analysis and identifying patterns of meaning that emerge from the community when they talk about a specific subject in this case the definition of Paganism. So what ends up being the definition of Paganism, when you use this methodology, is not going to represent every single individual but it will represent the pattern of meaning that the community is creating around this term. So you could say what the majority thinks in a way but it’s a bit more nuanced. So yeah, this is a very long-winded way of saying that the academic definition of Paganism will change over time because Paganism is an ongoing tradition that is changing, quite quickly and it is growing and it is also growing and there are more and more people identifying as Pagans and that, of course, will affect the definition of Paganism itself. So that’s why I thought it was interesting because it can allow scholars to better understand how Practitioners use this term. So yeah and for instance, in your case what is your definition of Paganism that allows you to say that you are a Thelemite and as well a Pagan?
GR: Yeah, so my sort of definition of Pagan is that it broadly refers to non-Abrahamic traditions that incorporate certain common practice aspects. I think that the Polytheism thing is very relevant. I think there are other things like nature and an ancestor can come in but I think those are like patterns and tendencies but I use Pagan in a very broad, big-tent sense right. I don’t like when I talk about someone who’s a Pagan I typically am going to use some sort of sub-identifier under it to know exactly what they’re doing because I think Paganism has become a very broad like, umbrella term. More so than a term that really identifies specifically what that means for an individual. Like if someone tells you they’re a Pagan and I’m meeting them, I’m like okay what do you actually do, what do you mean by that? Because I found that Paganism has become a very broad term. I know that’s a little different than sort of the academic definition which I can imagine for you guys keeping up with what people think is very difficult.
AP: Yes.
GR: I sometimes struggle following all the discourses. It seems like it’s moving like 10 miles a minute so I can imagine it’s tricky for you guys to sort of keep up with all the different perspectives. Because I think they’re multiple, you can make multiple arguments, in my opinion, for a good definition of Paganism. I don’t know exactly what the perfect definition would be, that would work for everyone. So I can imagine that’s tricky for you guys.
AP: Yes it definitely is. Especially when you study something like Paganism or contemporary esoteric practices because they are non-dogmatic, usually and so, not having a central authority or a central dogma you don’t have a cohesive theology and when even in cases where there is a very stable theoretical foundation, you will still find that different Practitioners will articulate it in a very individual way. So I’d say that this sort of individualisation of the practice is very common, across the board, when it comes to Magick-practising traditions. So that makes it harder to study as an academic. But I don’t mind the challenge and I think allows even social science to advance in a way to, you know, to sort of experiment with methodologies that will allow you to get the most accurate knowledge that you can get because that’s what academics do and what academia does – tries to deliver the most accurate knowledge in a given moment in time. So it’s a good challenge I’d say but it is definitely a challenge.
And another question that I wanted to ask you is about, you mentioned Polytheism and I was wondering what is the conceptualisation of deities that you find in the Thelema, in your experience, you know, personally and also what do you think other Thelemites usually think?
GR: Yeah, so I think Thelema is fundamentally emanationist. If you look into Thelema you’re going to notice that things like Kabbalah are heavily emphasized and our deities, if you look especially the “Book of the Law” you’re gonna notice – I call them like ‘composite deities’ -you’ll notice there’s like these sub names that get like switched around and that sort of changes the aspect of what you’re looking at and so because of those two things I think it has to be argued that Thelema is essentially an emanation theology, similar to like soft what people call soft-Polytheism where it’s essentially like one emanation going through different aspects and creating this refracting concept of deity. So whether it’s polytheist or not, as depending on how you would even define that, yeah, when you, I guess, you could make some crazy argument that’s monotheist. I wouldn’t go that far because of how separate they are but it’s very much aspects of the same emanation through because if you look at like how we talk about deity, it always comes back to the Tree of Life, right. We’re always like well Babalon is Binah and so if Babalon’s Binah but we’ve still got other like spirits we work with on different parts of that tree. They’re still, as you know how the Tree of Life works, if you’re familiar with anything about Hermetic Kabbalah it’s from the point in the circle emanating down. So inherently it is like an emanation, soft-polytheist conception but in practice, they do feel rather separate, I’ve noticed. As well, like Nuit and Babalon right? Nuit and Babalon are different aspects of each other, if you get really deep into the Thelemic metaphysics of it and so it’s like how are those two so different but they’re still aspecting each other in certain ways. And as well like, we correspond like the planets, to the spheres of the tree of life and so that’s how I would define it. But I think in practice, when you’re working with the spirits, as I do, they feel quite separate but it’s just our metaphysical argument is that soft idea. And so because of that would mean that other deities outside of the sort of, Thelemic Pantheon exist and you can still work with them and I notice a lot of Thelemites do that as well. So that’s my sort of conception of deity that at least I agree with, I have seen other Thelemites make the same argument, so. I mean I’m sure there are some people who disagree with me because getting Thelemite to agree on anything is like herding cats. There’s gonna be some dissenter but we all have a little bit of a different take. The problem with Thelema is that we’re so into like individual thought and doing what thou wilt, that we do we disagree too much that it’s almost like, annoying. But I guess that’s probably what Crowley would have wanted.
AP: Yeah definitely but, yeah I was thinking that if the deities are seen as an emanation, wouldn’t that be more Monism than Monotheism?
GR: Yeah, no. You can definitely… I don’t know exactly what words would best define it. So I think you can put a number of words on to that. I saw someone, I think this was on Twitter, to define say, Thelema’s monopolytheism. But I kind of laughed at that. I was like, yeah I kind of see it. I was like, I don’t know what that means for sure.
AP: Yeah I guess it, usually it would depend on what do you think that actually exists. So Monism would be the idea that everything is one and all the things that you see are emanations of that oneness. Whereas with Monotheism you have that there is one God that exists and it’s the only God that exists and then creates other things. So you have the actual existence in reality of what the one God has created and of God. Whereas in Monism you have the sense that, even though you see things as separate in reality, everything is one. So the truth of the matter is, that even if you see separation, ultimately that is one thing and that one thing or which everything is part of, is the God or the deity. So that would be a monistic perspective. In that case, you can have interaction with the separate emanations or the separate manifestations of that oneness but ultimately that is still one thing that actually, truly exists. So it’s more of an ontological matter, so what is it that exists as opposed to what appears to your senses and what participates in your experience. So there’s a distinction that usually is drawn between what is believed to actually exists and what is part of your experience.
GR: Oh. Well, I definitely agree more with Monism, for sure, for sure.
AP: So then you see it as Monism. Because you have polytheistic religions that are ultimately monistic because you find that with some Indian traditions, that I have studied before I started working with western Esotericism and Paganism, and you have the sense for instance that you have different deities but then the belief is that they are all one and you are one with the deity. So there is no ontological distinction between you as a separate entity and the deity. So that is the monistic idea and it’s yeah, you find a bit of that even in Neoplatonic understanding and Neoplatonic influences on the Occult.
GR: Yeah.
AP: Sorry, I went a bit on a tangent.
GR: No, that was really interesting. I think that there definitely is that. That, I think, is pretty much similar to what I would believe.
AP: And do you think that other Thelemites also would identify as Pagans or is it something that some Thelemites would identify as Pagans and others don’t? And have you found that there is a pattern, a common pattern between those who identify as Pagans as opposed to those who don’t?
GR: Yeah, I find some Thelemites call themselves Pagans and others don’t. That’s one of those things where kind of depends who you’re looking at and I think it depends on what aspects of something, I’ve noticed, this is just an observation, it depends on what part of Thelema they tend to be the most interested in, how they kind of answer that question. As well, when you get into people, when it gets really complicated people who are like part of other groups and practices as well. Like I know those people who are also into like, who have been like initiated into like Nordic stuff or Wicca or something like that, then those people almost always call themselves Pagan. But they’re also a little different than the like typical Thelemite. So it depends on who you’re talking to and what they’re interested in. So some would, some wouldn’t. I notice people who are really into like say Kabbalah or Gnosticism or like the Neoplatonic things, that sort of influence them, they tend to not call themselves Pagan, whereas people who are really into like the spirits like Nuit, Babylon or whatever tend to identify as Pagan more. That’s just an observation I’ve had there’s no like I don’t know exactly how to like taxonomy people, but I’ve noticed some do and some don’t and I’ve noticed there are patterns in either of those groups.
AP: Yeah I think that I was wondering whether, for instance, those who tend to be more solitary tend to identify more as Pagans as opposed to those who are more group. But yeah, that was just my because I was thinking whether those who see the Thelema more as a ceremonial practice…
GR: Yeah.
AP: …would see that as less of a Pagan tradition compared to those who have a more solitary practice and include some elements from other pagan traditions like Wicca, for instance, celebrating the eight festivals of the year? So but yeah, do you think that that could be the case?
GR: I think that’s probably part of it. Like I know for a fact I am influenced by contemporary Occultism broadly. Like I know I have that influence on me because that’s what I was exposed to first. So obviously that’s going to leave an imprint. It’s like how older Practitioners, no matter what tradition they’re in, they tend to have like a slightly Wiccan influence to them just because that’s what was pop, especially people who got into the Occult in the 90s, they almost universally have a little bit of Wicca on them, no matter what they identify as. And for me, I have that kind of contemporary Neopaganism because that’s what I was exposed to first, sort of. You know that stuff kind of imprints on you to some extent, what you’re exposed to. So I think there’s probably a correspondence there. Now another thing about people I’ve talked to that does seem to be a bit of a pattern, I’m just thinking of like people I know, I think so That would make sense. It’s complicated though how people identify because Thelemites, sometimes we get a little into the weeds with like definitions and all that. And like it’s like when people argue back and forth whether Thelema is a religion in the traditional sense, then it’s like, I answer yes to that question. Some people say no to that question. So it’s, I don’t know we like to disagree with each other, that’s a very common Thelemic thing to do.
AP: Yeah and what classifies as a religion is very interesting. And I would say, as a Religious Studies scholar, that has a wider impact on society. What I found and I said, even in previous conversations, is that there are Practitioners that refuse the term religion because they associate the term religion with Abrahamic religions and more basic religions but religion is not necessarily that. So, yeah but that’s an interesting, an interesting conversation, I think and it is evolving. But in Religious Studies circles, definitely, religion now doesn’t mean at all Abrahamic religion. In fact, you know, if you’re a Religious Studies scholar you can study Paganism, you can study Thelema, you can study, you know, Occultism. So that still is part of the Religious Studies umbrella because they are considered, to an extent, religious practices – even when they identify as a spiritual rather than a religion. That is still a question that is somewhat related to the perception of religiosity if that makes sense?
GR: That makes a lot of sense because we go back and forth and that’s kind of the thing that tends to come up. Because like I argue heavily that Thelema was a religion but certain people will be like, well it’s not the same as… It’s a long conversation and many people have been having it for years and I think your perspective makes a lot of sense with that.
AP: And another question that I wanted to ask you is about Magick in Thelema. How important it is in the practice and how important it is in the worldview, in the overall, yeah, in the overall experience of being a Thelemite?
GR: Yeah, so I would say pretty important. If you get into Thelema it tends to just be part of it. I guess, you could argue because one of the more common definitions that Thelemites throw around for being a Thelemite is to agree with the ideas of True Will and accept the “Book of the Law.” I guess if you’re using that definition, I know that’s one that there’s this Thelemic guy Seven Sema Hex(?) who, he’s a higher up in the OTO group and he says this is the definition. It’s one that I agree with kind of. So it by that definition, I mean, I guess, you don’t have to practice Magick to be a Thelemite. But in reality, I’ve never met a Thelemite who doesn’t engage with Magick and I think you, kind of, need to some extent or at least a little bit of it. I don’t think you need to be… this is one thing where I do, sort of, I guess is, a hot take – I don’t think you need to be some like expert Ceremonial Magician to be a Thelemite or like devote your entire life to it. I don’t think you need to. I think if you want to do it now and again and you agree with like True Will and well like that, I would still call you a Thelemite. But I think since our goal as Thelemites is to find our True Will, I don’t really know how you can, without at least a little bit of Magick. I think you don’t need to follow the like Thelema TM rituals right. You don’t need to do exactly what Crowley did, I think that’s insane. But I think Magick is just so central to what Thelema is, if you go to any Thelemic group that’s part of it. If you talk to any Thelemite they tend to bring it up. Crowley’s work is littered with it. I don’t know, really in practice, how you could be a Thelemite and not engage with Magick, especially because it is so ingrained in like the teachings of Thelema. It’s like, integral to the worldview. It’s almost inseparable. But I guess theoretically you could be a Thelemite by the popular definition and not engage with Magick but in reality, I’m not sure how that would actually work if that makes any sense?
AP: Yeah it does and you said something quite interesting to me. So why would you say that Magick is important to find your True Will?
GR: Yeah, so I would make this case because I think the one part where I deviate from saying Magick is what you have to do to get True Will is I think there’s no singular pathway to True Will. I think that that would defeat the point of True Will because we all have our own Will but in Thelema, I mean True Will is sort of given to you. Like it’s something you have to discover and so to discover that I think you have to do Magick in some form. I think that could take the form of like more Mysticism type stuff, you know what I mean, but you have to discover it somehow right. You have to figure out what that is and then once you sort of discover your True Will – it’s not really like answering a question right, it’s very much like something you have to live in alignment with. So you do, to continue, you know, discovering and growing with it. So I think you’d need some level of Magick. I think that could take on a few forms but I don’t think there’s like a singular way to get there. But I don’t know how you could do it without at least some sort of spiritual practice in some form.
AP: And how would you define Magick then? Would you use Crowley’s classical definition or do you see that as a bit different from that?
GR: I agree with Crowley’s classical definition, that’s how I would define it. I think it’s a good definition, I think it holds up.
AP: Yeah. I’m still thinking about your answer when it comes to Magick and Thelema and I guess I’d like for you to elaborate more on why Magick is so integral to the worldview as well. So what is it about Magick that is essential to the worldview of a Thelemite, to how Thelemite sees the world and how Thelemites see themselves?
GR: Yeah, so I think Magick is really integral because when you look at what Thelema is, it’s essentially a system based around this sort of current that is about discovering your True Will and in the end accomplishing the Great Work right. And the whole point of it is to follow that, to discover divinity, sort of, on your own terms and when you look at like what Thelemites do, it’s all very magickal. When you look at like how we even view life right like, the idea of synchronicities is something that Thelemites will talk about a lot right. Like you’ll notice certain numbers, when things are going certain ways or like signs and symbols and all that. And that is, I think, an enchanted worldview in and of itself. As well like there’s this concept in Thelema where you try to achieve knowledge and conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel, which essentially, like a spirit that helps guide and teach you and that really is a magickal thought in and of itself. Especially if we talk about how you go about or at least Thelemites argue that you go about doing that. There’s a lot of rituals involved and if, you know, if you start, if you talk to a Thelemite and say, how do I get involved with the Thelema they’re going to tell you to do Liber Resh which is essentially honouring like solar deities multiple times a day and that is a magickal thing to do. I just think it’s… in every practice associated with the Thelema has Magick and like every single one, I guess Will, Saying Will before meals, doesn’t really but even then it’s talking about it’s accomplishing the Great Work so it’s just, I don’t know, how you could pull it out. I think the only way you could pull it out would be if you’re someone who is what I would call, I call them philosophical Thelemites. It’s like where they like, agree with the philosophies of Thelema but those people are like point zero zero zero one percent Thelemites. So I think unless you’re seeing Thelema strictly as a philosophy, which in some aspects Thelema is a philosophy, there’s a clear philosophic current to it. But otherwise, I mean, every practice we do is Magick by our definitions. so I don’t know how it could be disconnected.
AP: Yeah, yeah that clarifies, at least to me, clarifies a lot of what you meant by how integral it is to also find your True Will. Yeah, that’s quite fascinating, thank you for that.
So I guess that in closing would you like to say anything to my audience or you know, mention your platforms in case they want to subscribe to them?
GR Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It was really interesting to discuss with you. I very rarely talk to academics, so it was refreshing.
I’m Georgina Rose, I go by Da’at Darling d-a-a-t and then Darling like the pet name on most platforms. My big thing is my YouTube channel, I’m on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram as well. So I’m on pretty much every social media platform. I don’t know which ones I’m not on. I am on Twitch as well, I very rarely use that one. But mostly YouTube, that’s like the big place to find me and TikTok would be the other one. I have a serious conversation on my YouTube, my TikTok is mostly memes. But I do both memes and serious discussions.
So thank you so much for having me on.
AP: Thank you so much for coming Georgina and for the audience watching this please let me know in the comments what you think about what we talked about and leave us your thoughts and comments.
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