Derek Lambert DL: Well myth vision podcast is demon-possessed and about to be exorcised by Dr Angela Puca. Welcome to MythVision. How are you?

Dr Angela Puca AP: Hello Derek, nice to be on your MythVision Podcast and I’m glad to be here for everybody who is watching this.

DL: This has been planned for a while because I just can’t get rid of these demons. They just, they haunt me. So let everybody pay attention. Not only am I demon-possessed at the moment but the end is nigh and if you don’t think that I’m worthy to open the scrolls. Here, you’re an eyewitness to the fact that I am.

We are MythVision.

Now, Dr Puca, I must admit there’s going to be some fundamentalist who’s going to click on this video and they’re going to go, see, I knew he was possessed, he even admits it.

AP: What’s the story behind you being possessed or being convinced that you are possessed?

DL: I think it’s the fact that I just don’t believe. Remember when you’re a fundamentalist Christian you think like everyone who believes in other stuff is either by the Satan or Devil or, you know, evil. When you’re a fundamentalist Christian you think this. And I would have thought that I was spiritually possessed by demons or whatever 10, 12 years ago. So if I were listening to me 10, 12 years ago I would think he has to be like, there’s no way, in my mind, like I was not.

AP: What about you talking, you know, entails that you are possessed by a demon? Because you’re interested in Esoteric stuff or for…?

DL: I think it’s just that I didn’t believe in Jesus and I’m and like, I speak like, about things that are very spiritual but you know, because you when you’re Christian, it’s not that only Christianity is the only thing you discuss. Any other gods and things like that become demons or something like evil, something like that. So I know there’s someone who’s gonna click on this video and go this man is possessed. But I titled it off the cuff like, randomly titled this video. Just wanting to get, you know, anything you would be interested in discussing in your expertise of course but it’s also the occult material that a lot of people enjoy. They get into the exorcisms and the occult demons and Paganism, you know, I thought demons were only something that Christianity and Judaism, you know, talk about. There’s a lot out there that we don’t know. So I had to have you come join me.

AP: Yes and I’ve had the most pagan days, so because I was yesterday at Glastonbury and Stonehenge.

DL: Oh wow.

AP: Yeah, with a dear friend. So yeah, I’ve had a very intense couple of pagan days. So, I must be channelling all of that in my answers.

DL: If I may like, what just for our audience because you’ve never come on MythVision what is your expertise? Like, what did you specialize in? What, you know, what kind of education background? And then… Oh, go ahead first. Let’s do that.

AP: Oh, my education background, so I have a Bachelor’s and a Master’s in Philosophy, Eastern and Western Philosophy. I also learned Sanskrit and Tibetan and I was studying Indian and Tibetan texts as an undergrad and a master’s student. Then I got a PhD in Anthropology of Religion, which is within the field of Religious Studies and I specialize, my core interest is Magick and religious practices that include some kind of Magick but religious practices of the non-Abrahamic kind. So usually polytheistic or pagan religions. So, but I say that my core interest is Magick and how that gets embedded into a religious system, a religious worldview and obviously I’m fascinated by Paganism also because of the connection to nature and that kind of re-enchanted worldview the ‘re-enchantment of the world’ which is a buzzword in academia. The idea that the world is not inanimate anymore but it has been re-enchanted. The term re-enchantment comes from Max Weber and his idea that modernity has brought about the disenchantment of the world, which means that the world is not considered to be full of magic and all things are sentient and have some kind of hidden essence, hidden power, hidden abilities to them. Whereas, in Religious Studies, they have, lately, been talking about the re-enchantment of the world especially when it comes to practices, you know, such as Paganism and other similar movements that include some kind of Magick. Where you have a re-enchantment of the world because part of their religious system, their spiritual-religious worldview includes the belief that everything around us is alive and sentient and there is some degree of interaction that you can get from it. So for instance, when you have Pagans or other magic Practitioners that use gemstones for specific magical purposes, that underlies the belief that the gemstone has some kind of exchange with you and with your life. So there is a perception that the gemstone is connected to you, that you are connected with the fabric of reality that surrounds you and then a specific gemstone has a specific occult power. So this means that the gemstone is somewhat enchanted, it’s not just a stone, so to speak. So yeah, I’m fascinated by these re-enchanting world views and religious practices and by Magick more generally.

DL: I gotta ask the obvious question that everybody has on their mind. What is up with the moon? I mean you love the moon. You’ve got it on your shirt. It’s like it’s rolling up your spine, so to speak, you know, on your background. What is the deal with the moon? You said you had tattoos. Tell us.

AP: Yeah, I have it here. Yes, I have the alchemical symbols on my right arm, the ones that are usually connected to the masculine which are the sun, fire, and air and here I have the moon, the earth, and water but yeah, what’s up with the moon? I love the moon generally, I’ve always loved the moon, even as a child. I’ve always been fascinated by the moon and I think that it’s very connected to the feminine, you know, the idea of the cycles of the moon and the cycles that a fertile woman has. And I also like the idea of movement and change that the moon brings about. So the idea that you know, the moon looks like it’s something but every day it looks different. So in essence it’s kind of the same thing every day but it appears in different ways along its cycle. So I’m just fascinated by this element of illusion and change and that sense of Magick that the moon, at least to me, has.

DL: Wow. That’s awesome. It’s amazing you know, I think it was. Who’s the stand-up comedian guy who always talked, I don’t know why I can’t remember his name? I’m blaspheming right now because he says something like you know… it’s the guy who goes, you know, “God loves you,” after he gets done saying, he’s going to burn you and cook you and this and that but I love you. Stand-up comedian, you know who I’m talking about, I’m sure everybody knows sometimes on the chat they’re going to tell me. How do you not know here’s the guy’s name my point is he did one stand-up comedy where he was like, you know, what I can believe in? I can believe in the sun. I can believe right. So he’s seeing something, it brings life. Without it, we wouldn’t live. Same with the moon, obviously but the point is, it’s like this is an observable natural phenomenon that he can believe in and I thought that was an interesting take because many of the ancients thought, you know, the sun was something. It was a deity, it was something beyond. They may have had a misunderstanding of some things that we today, scientifically, might be able to understand but they were looking at it differently. They understood it differently than maybe we do today.

I do have a few super chats and I’d love to get into those but just so everybody’s understanding. Dr Puca, you got your PhD. But you also I’m just reading here on the Religious Studies Project dot com, you said you were born in Naples.

AP: That’s not, yeah, that’s not up to date. But go on, I can correct the outdated things.

DL: Yeah, I just wanted to know you have your BA and MA degrees in Philosophy. You said you were now a Graduate Teaching Assistant at Leeds that’s….

AP: Now, I’m a lecturer, yeah, I’m a lecturer.

DL: Okay and then you mainly study Philosophy with a special focus on Eastern Philosophies and Religion. Throughout her academic formation, she studied Latin, ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Tibetan; classical and modern, to translate primary sources of interest from different philosophical and religious traditions and then during your Master’s degree you expanded knowledge of Religious Studies focusing on Buddhism and Indian and Tibetan religions. After your Master’s degree, your research shifted, like the moon, towards Paganism and Shamanism particularly their contemporary manifestations in western society and at that time it says your current doctoral project, which you already got through, I guess is the what is this auto…?

AP: Autochthonous, which then became indigenous and transcultural Shamanism in Italy. That’s why I thought it’s a bit outdated.

DL: Right.

AP: But yeah, in the beginning, the title of my PhD dissertation was “Autochthonous and Transcultural Shamanism in Italy.” Autochthonous means, it’s a very technical term that means, from the land. Then I changed it to Indigenous because I wanted to enter the debate around the conceptualisation of indigenous religions, which are different from indigenous people and that is one of the things that I argue in my PhD. And I’m not the only one to argue that because other scholars have talked about it. But I, in my thesis, I argue that a specific kind of folk magic in Italy can be deemed the indigenous Italian Shamanism and of course, that has required lots of pages to conceptualise ‘indigenous’ and ‘Shamanism’ because, you know, as soon as you say that you sort of has to premise, well wait before you attack me I swear I have an argument for that.

DL: Thank you, yeah, I gotta read that someday, your dissertation.

AP: Yeah, I’m going to publish it, I’m going to publish it with Brill and I will be working on turning my dissertation into a book over the summer. So hopefully by the end of the summer, I will hand it in.

DL: Congratulations.

AP: Thank you. I have to do it. I have to do it first but thank you.

DL: No, I mean you have your PhD, So you have achieved your doctorate in terms of this work. So, I’m very proud of you for that. I know that’s not easy. People have told me, hey why don’t you go for your PhD and I’m like, with what time? I don’t have time to do something like that and I wouldn’t even know what I want to specialize in because I have so many scholars who come on with various ideas that intrigue me. So it’s just something that I wouldn’t have the time or the money to put into.

AP: Yeah, I was teaching. So I had a studentship for my PhD. So, I think I was lucky because I never really paid for my education because I always I was always able to win studentships to cover the costs, which meant that I always had to be super, you know, always had to get the highest marks and everything. But yeah…

DL: I wouldn’t have been able to do that.

AP: Yeah, but I was a nerdy kid that, you know, I was the odd one that would cry on Sundays because I couldn’t go to school. So what would you expect from someone like that?

DL: Wow.

AP: Yeah because the other kids would think that school was something daunting. Whereas, every time that I was entering the classroom, for me it was like something so exciting. So I remember that I was so, you know, immersed in the teaching, in the lectures and it felt like every day I would discover something amazing and new. And I remember that, during the classes, in the history classes I got so immersed in the history of the Roman Empire that then when it fell, I cried for a day when I went home because it felt like something that was so…

DL: You felt like it happened in your time. Yeah, you’re so immersed in it you know. This reminds me, I don’t know how accurate scientifically this is, but like how women mature quicker than men, I hear. And like I don’t know how accurate that is but I’ve heard it said and thinking to myself, I feel that way now, about all of this, that I didn’t feel back then when I was actually doing school. I was like ehhhhh, but then later on I get out of school, I don’t have to go to school anymore then I want to learn all this stuff.

So anyway, we got some super chats. Let’s jump to some questions and let’s see. By the way, she has a specialized focus that doesn’t mean she may not have an opinion on something or whatever. Keep in mind if she doesn’t know the answer, this is what academics do and they’re gonna respectfully tell you like that’s not, you know, my field or I’m not certain of that but you may know something about this one.

Constellationpegasus, thank you for the super chat, my friend. Any written accounts in Judaism about demon possession. In Judaism, demons have to eat and can reproduce.

Now for me before I leave it off to you, is Dr Justin Sledge I just…

AP: I was about to say that.

DL: I just spoke to him before we did this live and he was like… Let me read you the text just so everybody can know. So that, Constellation, this is kind of weird. It’s like he’s reading my mind like he knew we were supposed to answer this question or something. So he said, also if you ever want to do a live on demons and exorcisms in Judaism, let me know. And I said, of course, I do. And then you know so we’re gonna plan that. Did you have a comment about this or would you?

AP: No, because I’m not an expert in Judaism. So I would encourage people to ask questions about contemporary Paganism.

DL: Okay.

AP: Yeah, or Shamanism because that’s my expertise. But yeah, for when it comes to Judaism, definitely, Justin is the person to go to, Dr Sledge.

AP: Well, in my research I study contemporary things that happen now.

DL: Right, right.

AP: And in the, you know, in the immediate past. But yeah, by contemporary Paganism we mean the Paganism that has emerged around the 1950s in the 20th century, even though there were claims of it being much older than that. But these claims have been widely disproven by scholars in history. One of them is Professor Ronald Hutton who’s kind of a superstar in the field of Paganism and Pagan Studies.

DL: Excellent, excellent. Okay, Constellation, thank you for the super chat, my friend.

Topic discuss Gary, what is up? What is this new little nifty icon by my name?

You are a Member, my friend. Your sins are cleansed. So, Gary, you are a member of MythVision. That means that if you can at least commit three sins they’re already forgiven. After that though, you know we gotta talk, we gotta talk. So thank you so much for that.

AP: It’s nice how you play the Vatican.

DL: I do but I’m much more forgiving, you know. Like, you know, I try to be more merciful than some of them. So you know, you gotta be nice, you know.

Thank you, so much. I did not mention it yet but I hope that everybody goes and I’m gonna pin this here. This is her YouTube channel and she has a large YouTube channel. Please go subscribe. She is constantly putting out new material. If you’re interested in actually… I suspect you take requests and stuff for those who are Patreon members. You can go and join her Patreon. You can like throw out ideas and communicate with her. She is a current scholar, with a PhD in the field. So please go support the academics in the field and join her Patreon. What do you offer with your Patreon?

AP: It really depends on, it depends on the tiers the tier that the person decides to pledge to. So for instance, the Initiates get the script of my videos. From the Philosophers onwards, Philosophers up they get the priority access to my videos. Then for the Magus level Patrons, we have a monthly lecture on primary sources. So, for instance, last month we did “Magic in Theory and Practice” by Aleister Crowley and we will actually continue this month, you know, studying and lecturing on Aleister Crowley and that specific book, especially part three, because we realize that there is so much more to say. And then the Archmage level patrons get a one-to-one conversation with me and the higher level, the Demiurge level, they get sort of a private lecture on a topic they choose.

DL: That’s awesome. I like the little doll that you’re using. Like what is that doll from? That reminds me of Chucky, in a way.

AP: Yeah, that was created by a friend of mine who’s a game developer and yeah, so he created it and I was there and I just wanted a doll that resembled me somehow.

DL: Now can they poke that doll and it hurts you. I’m just kidding.

AP: That’s a good question, maybe I shouldn’t have gone for a doll, considering the subject matter. Maybe that wasn’t a great idea, I just realized.

DL: Well just so everybody knows I pinned her YouTube channel in the comment section at the top. Please go subscribe to Angela’s. I’m planning on having her come back more and more, here on MythVision to come and hang out with us and learn more because there’s a lot – we probably aren’t even going to scratch the surface on today about contemporary Paganism and of course her research and studies and things you should learn. You can also join MythVisions Patreon. We work very hard at what we do. Get early access and private message me and whatever you’d like to do in that respect but working very hard to try and bring you more material. So that’s enough about our plugs.

I wanted to ask you, since your speciality is, in particular, contemporary Paganism, where you a… how do I put this? What made you interested in Paganism? Were you always kind of someone who was into this kind of stuff before you went for your PhD doctorate?

AP: So that’s a good question. So I think that, as I said my core interests, research interests and primary interest is Magic and I was fascinated by that since I was a child really. And then I started to study very complex texts when I was a teenager, you know, things in Ceremonial Magic, which I’m not sure I was prepared to read at 13, 14. But I think that I got into Paganism because it was a religious practice that had Magic embedded in its worldview and in its religious system. So I thought that’s the first thing that attracted me about Paganism and also the connection to nature. Although I know that now, in recent years, that has been, sort of, reassessed because usually contemporary Paganism has often been described as an earth-worshipping religion. And lately, since there are, for instance, Thelemites and other types of Magicians that identify as Pagans and they are not particularly nature-worshipping. That element is considered, perhaps, a bit more fluid but there are elements of Paganism, all the elements of Paganism just fascinate me immensely. The perception that everything is interconnected, the Polytheism, the conceptualization of the Gods and indeed demons.

So, for instance, in Abrahamic religions, you have the idea that there is a creator god that has created everything and then stays outside of the world and that is the difference between transcendence and immanence. So transcendence means that the god is outside of nature, has created nature and then stays outside of it. Whereas an imminent view of the divine means that the divine is imbued in everything that you see in everything that you touch. So that means that everything material, in Paganism, is sacred and it is, in a way, divine. And the Gods in Paganism are not God-creators, they are inhabitants of… well that depends on whether you are a hard or a soft polytheist but Gods are usually conceptualised as entities that inhabit a different realm of reality or even archetypes, psychological archetypes, that are able to interact with our mundane daily life and world in a way that they can affect what happens to us and influence what happens to us and the same goes for spirits. Spirits are often talked about in Shamanism but also in Paganism. So you have this idea of spirits and deities and Gods and Goddesses and it gives a sense that the creation, everything is in an ongoing state of creation, as opposed to Abrahamic religions that tend to have a more linear perception of time. So there is the creation and then time moves forward. In Paganism you often have the sense that there is an ongoing sense of creation and the Gods participate in this continuous ongoing creation, just as much as human beings, trees, and the sky, and the animals populating the earth. So there’s a sense of interconnectedness between everything and I find that particularly fascinating.

And also the idea that it’s not a revealed religion, so you don’t have scripture, you don’t have a messiah, you don’t have a prophet. So there’s more of a sense of a direct connection with the divine.

DL: Like if you want to access the divine go out and look at the science…

AP: And access the divine.

DL: Yeah, go into the woods, go out to the beach, go look at nature and connect with it is the idea.

AP: Yes and also you have Priests and Priestesses in Paganism but they tend to be more like leaders of groups and covens rather than… so you don’t have the sense that the Priest or Priestesses has privileged access to the divine but more they help the others in the group to get in contact with the divine. So it’s more like a friendly help of a big brother or a big sister who, perhaps, has more experience than you. So there isn’t really that sort of hierarchical perception. And also Paganism is very individualistic in the sense that Pagans usually are very anti-authority, so they don’t like hierarchies and they don’t like authorities and there is quite often the sense that Pagans quite often tend to individually tailor their practices to see what suits them best, what it is that resonates with them they incorporate in their practices. And yeah, also there’s the perception that the land is sacred and also plays a major, important role.

There are several aspects of Paganism that I find absolutely fascinating and also, Shamanism. I think that Shamanism and Paganism are quite intertwined and one may even argue that Shamanism may fall under the umbrella of Paganism because Paganism is considered an umbrella term for a number of earth-based or earth-worshipping religions, even though, as I said that definition of earth-worshipping is a bit fluid now that there are other types of magic Practitioners identifying as Pagans. And then you have the sense that since there are correspondences, so they embrace that perception from the Renaissance and from the Hermetic philosophy of correspondences between the above and below. So everything it’s like there’s the fabric of reality and you are immersed in it and everything is interconnected. So you need to find the right correspondences so that you are able to pull the exact string that you need to move something at a distance or to manipulate reality in the way you wish. But it’s not just about Magic and manipulating and affecting your reality. It is also about changing yourself and being in a state of connectedness because if everything is interconnected and you enter into this web of interconnectedness and affect reality then you are affected as well because you are also connected to that web. So you cannot just disentangle yourself from that process. So it’s also a process of self-discovery and changing that affects yourself and changes yourself as you change the outside. But yeah…

DL: There’s so much.

AP: Yeah, there’s a lot.

DL: Like there are so many interesting things that you’re saying there that make me like have questions. So I’m gonna get a few super chats here and then I’d love to ask you some ideas that I think about this whole earth worship thing. So Gary, thank you for the super chat, my friend. Was there any connection between Aleister Crowley and L Ron Hubbard from Scientology? Do you know if there’s any connection?

AP: There is a loose connection because one of the most famous Thelemites is…ah what’s his name? There’s a recent TV show on him, Jack Parsons, huh remembered, so Jack Parsons, there’s a TV show called “Strange Angel” which I would highly recommend. I find it quite interesting and it centres around Jack Parsons who was a famous American Thelemite, and he is somewhat connected to Ron Hubbard and the creation of Scientology. So there is kind of a loose… so I wouldn’t say that Scientology has a direct link to Aleister Crowley and his philosophy because that isn’t the case. So there’s just a loose connection by association but I haven’t looked into that too much, in terms of my research, but it’s possible that there has been some influence from Thelema to Ron Hubbard. But yeah I’m not completely sure because I haven’t investigated that specifically. But Aleister Crowley has basically influenced, to some degree, the whole lot of Western Esotericism even though I’m not sure Scientology could enter the realm, or what, you know, could be considered part of Western Esotericism – maybe not. But yeah there is some loose connection but I wouldn’t say a direct influence.

DL: There’s something weird, I think, just on this subject, L Ron Hubbard made this wild accusation or claim that he was the Antichrist and that he like, said some things that I would see Aleister Crowley saying. Like Crowley, however you pronounce his last name, my point is like there were Scientologists, like one of the ladies I talked to Karen de la Carriere who’s like, why would he say this and it got him into a lot of like trouble with some of the higher people in Scientology who were like, what the heck is he saying and it sounded like there was some type of influence like Crowley might have read of – I’m sorry not Crowley but Hubbard might have read of Crowley and may have heard some of the things he was saying or was influenced in some way to make the stand that he was an Antichrist. Because what’s weird about it is we know Crowley came from a Christian background. So like he viewed himself kind of in this opposition, as a person who’s gonna practice Magick, of course, but he like is in opposition to fight against that Abrahamic faith that he once had in that authoritarian, you know, religion. From what I understand. Am I correct in this? I’ve been told this.

AP: Yeah, I would say that kind of nature made it popular to be the Antichrist. But yes, I think that some of these claims at the time, you know, the early to mid 20th century, to me, seems like they wanted to be provocative and you know, sort of catch the attention of the public because of course, you know, being the Beast 666 is something that will attract attention. But also I think that, with Crowley, he wanted to highlight that he was, sort of, the figure of the adversary. So he wanted to classify himself as an adversarial figure and he was clearly antinomian so he rejected the societal norms. So somebody…

DL: He made his own laws or he, yeah, he comes up with his own set of laws.

AP: So, your question was why Ron Hubbard…

DL: Maybe he went with what you’re saying. Like he wanted to catch attention so he says it or he started losing his mind at the end. I don’t know but…

AP: Yeah, you know, even Marilyn Manson has said something like that I guess. There’s the album “Antichrist Superstar” or something like that but yeah, I think that the concept of the Antichrist has become a bit romanticized. After the romanticism and this new perception of Satan as this romantic hero that I have a video actually about that, you know, how Satan got romanticized in the during the Romanticism because he starts to be seen a little bit, thanks to the secularisation and the idea that people were not as scared of Satan being the actual, real, evil incarnate, but Satan becoming more like a mythological figure. So less scary because it felt less real, so that process of cultural secularisation plus the connection that was created, thanks to literature and poetry, between Satan and these rebellious, you know, somebody who dared to rebel against God and so he became a romantic ideal that was also connected to the revolutions during that time. And so it assumed this connotation of being anti-establishment and at the same time for freedoms and for the freedom of exploring your pleasure in life and the freedom against the religious status quo dictated by the dominant Christian system. And so quite often you see that kind of romanticisation and that perception of the Antichrist also linked to you know being very immersed in hedonistic pleasures and not rejecting the, you know, the pleasures of the world as opposed to what a religion like Christianity may suggest. So, yeah I think that it is linked to that kind of romanticisation of the figure of Satan and also I’d say, that sense of, you know, we have the cookies and stuff.

DL: Thank you so much for that, Gary. Thanks for that super chat. Discovering Ancient History with Pat Lowinger. Thank you, Pat, for the super chat. Exorcisms were ubiquitous, I hope I’m saying that properly and the ancient Mediterranean and ancient Near East including Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Christianity’s ritual as codified by Basil and Chrysostom. That is an interesting thing because I titled this with exorcism in the title and is that something that contemporary Pagans practice? And if so what… I mean like, what role does exorcism play in your research?

AP: So no, I wouldn’t say that exorcism plays a big role in Paganism. You may have something kind of similar in Shamanism and perhaps you may have some similar practice in Paganism but it’s different. So for instance in Shamanism you would have the perception that in some shamanic practices they think that since they have an animistic worldview, which means that everything has a soul, then even things that happen to your body have their own spiritual identity. Which means that if you have a disease that could classify as a demon and so you may have rituals of extractions. Extraction rituals where you would extract the demon out of the body but the demon would be the illness, so the spirit of the illness. So if you see that everything has a soul or a spirit then it means that even your organs are spirits and even things that happen to your body, like a disease may classify as an entity of some sort and usually, demons are associated with detrimental entities. And so you would have that a specific illness is a demon that needs to be extracted from the body. So in that case you could say it is some kind of exorcism and you do have exorcisms in native forms of indigenous Shamanism too.

So the kind of exorcism that we would see more as exorcism, like resulting from spirit possession and even in that case I have a video on spirit possession and a different kind of spirit possession. So in some cases, you have it that there is a cohabitation with the host, with the person and in other cases, you have that the demon completely takes over. But this tends to be a perception that happens. Yeah, that has become more popular through Christianity but you do have that in indigenous Shamanisms. Contemporary Paganism, however, often tended to find its identity in, I wouldn’t say in contrast, but contemporary Paganism tended to see itself as different from Christianity. So there are certain elements that are considered culturally linked to Christianity that Pagans just don’t adopt at all. So, for instance, in Wicca which is possibly the most popular contemporary pagan religion, you don’t have demons at all. They are not featured in the worldview and there are certain entities that would be classified as demons that, for Pagans, are considered deities, like Lilith, for instance. So they don’t have the concept of demons in that sense but you do have the concept of demons in Shamanism and perhaps in other pagan practices. But I wouldn’t say it’s particularly prevalent.

DL: Okay he follows up with another one. Thank you, Pat. Everybody, go subscribe to Bitty Buddha, by the way, that’s the channel that he’s always on. So it’s really interesting, he always has these fun facts that he brings on. Given the prevalence of Polis Religious systems or systems in ancient societies, is the individualism of modern Paganism a hallmark differentiation?

AP: Of contemporary Paganism?

DL: Is the individualism of modern or contemporary Paganism a hallmark of differentiation?

AP: I think it is definitely something that differentiates Paganism from other religious practices because there is more of a direct individual connection to the divine and the perception that you don’t have to follow a dogma. You have that Pagans form communities but the formation of communities tends to be more loose and the majority of Pagans are solitary practitioners who may attend at times public events but more often than not they practice by themselves.

DL: Now in the ancient world, just like an example, Christians are somewhat like that today. Where it’s like I have my own little private Christian relationship with Jesus. But like he’s describing here with the polis religion, that like the whole community or the nation follows a certain practice or whatever, was Paganism from your research and I know you specialize with contemporary but I’m sure you know about ancient pagan ideas, did they have kind of a nationalistic or a communal where it wasn’t so individualistic. Like today I could go down to a Baptist Church walk in, attend service, walk out, never have to come back nobody’s checking on me, I can have my own private religious practice and whatnot. Do you know if ancient Paganism was like that? If it was individualistic, like today or if it was a communal thing where it was like, hey Bob’s not showing up to the shaman rights, he needs to come, show up. Or Sally needs to make her butt down here and check, you know. I don’t know. what are your thoughts?

AP: So first off, it’s difficult to call the ancient, pre-Christian practices as pagan religion in the singular because it was… well obviously they didn’t define themselves as Pagans because that’s a later term. But also you don’t have a unitarian religious system or a unitarian religious practice. You have more patterns of religious beliefs and practices but yeah, I would say that generally, it was more communal than contemporary Paganism is. And that’s also a difference between transcultural and indigenous Shamanism. So indigenous Shamanism tends to be more based on the community whereas transcultural Shamanism, which is the form of Shamanism that is not linked to a specific place or to a specific initiation, it’s like “Core Shamanism” by Michael Harner, that focuses on the techniques rather than the place, the tradition the initiation, the bloodline. And so it is trans-cultural so whether you do a shamanic journey in Italy or in the UK or in the US you’re supposed to get the same exact results whether you do it by yourself on your couch or in the woods, you know, under a full moon, you’re supposed to get the same exact result. So there’s a focus on the technique rather than the cultural context and initiation, bloodline and all these other elements. So you also have the difference there, so with indigenous Shamanism there’s more of an emphasis on the community with transcultural Shamanism, which is particularly popular in the western world, there’s more of a focus on the individual and the self-discovery, the self-development the self-healing, or the healing of people in your family, close to you, connected to you, not to your community, not your town for instance. And with Paganism is a bit similar, I guess, in that contemporary Paganism tends to have that individualistic element. But they also have a communitarian element to that but I’d say that mostly there is individualism. So every Pagan won’t follow a specific dogma, every Pagan will tailor their own religious belief depending on their practices, their experiences and the worldview that they resonate with the most.

DL: You’re gonna laugh, you’re gonna laugh. When I was a Christian, like a real fundamentalist who spoke in tongues. (he uses glossolalia) We spoke in tongues, we were praying to Jesus and I was at this house church. And every October on Halloween we got together and we would sit in there and we’d praise Jesus and worship and then we would like, go into these kinds of trance-like states where we would like, sit here and be rebuking the demons and the spirits of the Pagans. Because we believed, I know this is crazy sounding, our audience is probably thinking to me like, what Derek? You used to do this, but we were we would sit there and be like trying to like fight the spirits of Pagans who were human sacrificing on this day like we believed that they were in the woods sacrificing a human and all this kind of stuff. And we’re sitting there like trying to like fight against these pagan ideas. I remember this stuff when we were in this little trance and trying to like fight these spiritual battles. But that leads to my question I just want to throw out there is like do Pagans do human sacrifice today? Is this something that happens but they keep it hush, hush? Is there any reality to that or is that a polemic that Christians have invented in their minds because they see it as like, oh no, that’s so bad? You know what I mean?

AP: Yeah definitely the latter. Well no, I wouldn’t say the Christians have invented that because I don’t want to blame Christians. I try to be sort of welcoming towards any kind of religious practice and religious belief. But yeah, I would say that it is something that is made up and Pagans tend to live in societies with laws and like other people, tend to follow the laws and if you don’t, you know, regardless of your religious belief, you will pay for it – depending on the country and the laws of your country. So…

DL: Yeah, thank you so much for answering that silly question. Crawford Fulton King, thank you for the super chat. I have a Thelemite friend who believes that Crowley tried to steer Parsons away from Hubbard. Love you both. Interesting.

AP: I don’t know about the controversy around it but I can tell you that apparently, the right pronunciation is Cowley.

DL: Crowley.

AP: Because he wrote a poem where his name would rhyme with holy. So Crowley – holy obviously, you know.

DL: That makes sense.

AP: Crowley was definitely self-loving himself quite a lot.

DL: Yeah, thank you, Crawford, thank you. Sherry D, does Paganism regard everything in nature as having some level of consciousness or awareness? Thank you, Sherry, for the super chat.

AP: Yeah, I would say so. I think that that could be considered a pantheistic worldview. So Pantheism means when the divine is in everything – pan means everything in Greek and theos means god so Pantheism is the idea that the divine is in everything. So yeah, as I explained in my overview of Paganism I would say so, that there is this perception that everything has some kind of consciousness, everything is sentient somehow.

AP: Thank you, Sherry, for the super chat I really appreciate that.

Greyz174 do you believe in any kind of eternal hell? So what does Paganism teach about eternal hell? Is there anything like that or what do they think happens when you die?

AP: So, no hell, apart from this one. I’m kidding. But no, a lot of Pagans… so you have the idea of the Summerland in Wicca but I’d say that the majority of Pagans in my research, you know, the Pagans that I’ve come across in my fieldwork, usually believe in reincarnation. In fact, it is very common for Pagans to do a ritual called Regression, Ritual of Regression, so that they can remember past lives and it is also quite common among Pagans to hit on a woman saying, we were lovers in a past life.

DL: Oh wow!

AP: That’s like the next-level chat-up line.

DL: I’ve heard there are Shamans in South America that do ayahuasca rituals and they like to help get people through them. They do them so much that in their ayahuasca experience they marry the woman in the other realm that they’re experiencing in the shaman ritual and they divorce the woman in this, where we are today. Like they do so many of these rituals and go into this place where they’re in this ayahuasca ritual they literally will divorce the woman here to marry the woman in the ayahuasca realm. Like it’s just kind of funny to me that I don’t know why I thought about that connection when you’re like, you did what in your last life? Oh heck no, like that’s silly but you know I think it’s kind of funny. But anyway, it’s sad too at the same time.

AP: Yeah, but I’ve also done fieldwork with Mapuche Shamans in Argentina, so in South America. So not all indigenous Shamans use psychotropic drugs, in fact, for some reason, you know, the ones that I’ve done research with didn’t use drugs at all, you know, psychotropic plants. So that’s interesting. And they would still do these rituals of regression without the use of these substances, just, you know, by using certain rituals.

DL: Thank you, Greyz. Mr Monster, thank you for the super chat, says I’m pretty much atheistic pagan and Baldr, I think I’m saying right, is my Patron. But I love learning history and all sorts of ancient Gods. Pagan religion is fascinating. Thank you for the super chat and for being a member my friend. Yeah, did you want to comment on that?

AP: Oh yeah, that just reminds me that I think that atheistic Paganism is understudied and I think we need to study that more. So you may have given me an idea for a future paper.

DL: Yeah, I was going to ask that question earlier but Mr Monster kind of addresses it by saying that’s what he is. So was like, can you be an atheist and still look at nature in a mystical sense? Because well I look at the world around me and think wow! You know, often, I’m in awe of nature and just what this is that we live in. But I don’t necessarily think there’s some metaphysical or spiritual thing behind it. I’m just still impressed with nature itself, nature is more powerful than me, I am just a part of this, like, you know, they say that… like I watch the survivor shows on TV before and they’re like mother nature will kick your ass if you do not work with her, so don’t try to fight it. You have to learn how to survive using it or you’re gonna die and so you know nature’s powerful. So I don’t know, is this something you put some thought into?

AP: So this is, of course, not based on research but it is more an educated guess. So sometimes I feel… I hope I’m not undermining anyone’s belief. So just take this as my preliminary opinion and I may be wrong on it. Sometimes I feel that those who identify as atheistic Pagans have a very specific idea of what Atheism is – that is quite based on Abrahamic religions. So the idea that in order to be atheistic you need to have a certain perception of the divine that resembles the monotheistic religions but in the example that you gave, Derek, you know, the idea that you see nature and you are in awe but you don’t see spiritual essence behind it, then I would say that is not a pagan worldview. I’d say it is more respect and admiration of nature. So I would be interested in studying more atheistic Paganism too and to better understand this because it’s understudied.

DL: You know, you ever heard of the term god fears for the Pagans who went to the synagogues and they saw admiration, they said oh, you know we kind of liked some of the things you Jews are saying but we’re not going all the way and actually becoming a Jew. It makes me kind of wonder if like Pagans would have that kind of concept for people like me who are in awe of nature, right? They respect nature, they love, there’s something in common here. However, I don’t go that far to think like, you know, there’s a spirit or everything is an essence and conscious and whatnot. I have a different… I have a limit where I would draw that line for me. You know what I mean but I wonder if they would have that respect and go you know what we can nod our hat and say okay, you know, respect, respect. I don’t know.

AP: Yeah, I’m not sure. I’d be interested in understanding whether that classifies as Paganism or maybe the definition of Paganism that needs to be extended to include that side of it. That people that identify as atheistic Pagans but as I said it’s under-researched and it fascinates me.

DL: I can’t wait to see what you come up with.

Greyz174 says does the concept of Jesus dying for our sins make sense to you? I’ve never understood the mechanics of how you even get from A to B like that. So as someone who studies Paganism what do they think about this idea that Jesus dies for people’s sins?

AP: Well Pagans, not being Christians, don’t entertain the idea of Jesus dying for our sins. So it’s just not part… some Pagans just think that Jesus was a prophet. So I’d say that there is respect for Christianity and of the deity in Christianity and Jesus and the Holy Mary but I wouldn’t say that they believe in the fact that, yeah, Jesus died for our sins. However, there will be Christians that will remind Pagans of that. Because you know I just got reminded of being at a ritual, at a pagan ritual, you know, for fieldwork and it was in the woods and there was a Christian walking past and she just, you know, seeing people in circles, wearing robes and you know having the regalia and the altar and everything. She asked the Priest and the Priestess what God they were worshipping. And the Priest and the Priestess said we are worshipping the spirits of nature, we are connecting to nature. And then she started lecturing everybody about the fact that Jesus died for our sins and that everybody there would go to hell and these kinds of things. So I wouldn’t say that it’s something, that it’s a concept that Pagans entertain but sometimes, at least in my personal experience, you may have the odd Christian that will remind you of that, as a Pagan.

DL: Yeah, I can’t… I get annoyed by it personally, but Able, thank you for the super chat. What if Satan is the true creator, good in the sense that he creates life, bad in that he has karmic laws, he is a son of God and also our egos.

AP: Wow, that’s a lot.

DL: I don’t know what to say, man, I don’t know what to say.

AP: There are some Satanists that believe that. So you know that my fieldwork is mainly in Italy because I’m Italian if you guys couldn’t tell by my accent, but yeah, there is a form of Satanism in Italy that is called Spiritual Satanism and they have the kind of view of Satan and also that Satan is love and sometimes it’s interesting because, in this Spiritual Satanism, it’s interesting because they have certain conceptions that are usually associated by the God of Christianity but they attribute it to Satan and then they also include some pagan elements like the celebrating the eight festivals of the year that were popularized by Wicca, by the Wiccan tradition – you know, the solstices, the equinoxes and the midpoints, the eighth festivals. So yeah, maybe I’m not sure about the karmic law and the son of God but you may have some Satanists that see Satan as a creator. In other cases no, not as much. Yeah, there are different conceptualizations in Satanism. That’s another thing that I want to research more.

DL: Thank you so much. Appreciate that Abel. Topic discussed. Gary says did Crowley, I’m trying to pronounce it properly here or Thelamy adopt masonic ceremonies? Is there any connection between Paganism and Masonry?

AP: So Crowley or Thelema. So, actually, in Greek, it’s a Greek term and in Greek, it’s actually pronounced Thelema but I know the English speakers pronounce it Thelema. So I’m going for the English pronunciation. So the rituals created by Crowley were based on a few different things but they were based a lot on the rituals of the Golden Dawn rather than Freemasonry. Now Ceremonial Magic has had some influence from Freemasonry but even in that sense, you don’t really see… I wouldn’t say that there is such a direct connection but you have the system of degrees that is influenced by Freemasonry. So I would say that there is some influence there. In Ceremonial Magic you have some influence from Freemasonry. What was the other question? Is there any connection between Paganism and Masonry?

DL: Same thing, pretty much.

AP: So considering that there is a little bit of influence. That’s because, you know that Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca and Wicca is the most popular pagan religion I have a video on that you know does Wicca come from Crowley, so in case viewers are interested and in that video, I explained that Gerald Gardner knew Aleister Crowley, in fact, he was initiated into the OTO and so there has been an influence, especially in terms of rituals, from the OTO on early Wiccan, Gardnerian Wicca. So yeah, so if we say it’s not a direct influence but if you see that there is some influence, that Freemasonry had on the Golden Dawn and then the Golden Dawn on Crowley and then Crowley on Wicca. Maybe you could see a connection but it’s sort of, you lose something, you know, along all of these steps and evolutions.

AP: I think, as I said at the beginning of the discussion, by modern Paganism we may define, well it’s difficult to define definitely, modern Paganism or contemporary Paganism but I’d say it is an umbrella term to identify a set of religious movements that are very much based on the earth and on the imminent sense of the divine, on recognizing the female and the male principles in reality, in the divine world and in everything. So you have, especially in Wicca but also in Paganism, you have this idea of the female and the male as two principles in nature. Like the principle that is more active, another one that is more receptive. And also the idea that it’s not a dogmatic religion, it’s not a revealed religion it is polytheistic, acknowledges the existence of multiple entities and you don’t have standardised ethics. So the ethics of Pagans is based on individual perception or in some cases, like in Wicca, they have the Wiccan redes and so they have the perception, the belief that everything that they do will get back to them threefold times. So there is one ethical stance that they have in Wicca but other Pagans don’t endorse that so this is what contemporary Paganism is, as I said is an umbrella term that encompasses a set of religious practices that have these characteristics. But it is a very fluid phenomenon. It’s not like defining a specific form of Christianity or Judaism. Paganism, as I said, being non-dogmatic tends to be more fluid and it’s more difficult to define and perhaps research – well there are different difficulties depending on the research topic but definitely one that Paganism poses is that it eludes a very stark definition. So you need to be clever with the methodology to capture what it is. So have a clear definition without, sort of, altering or tainting its nature to make it resemble something that it isn’t, just to make it clear.

DL: Thank you Constellationpegasus. I enjoyed your responses Dr Puca and these are many reasons why our next super chat, I would say it’s better than what I found in Abrahamic ones. So Know More Religion has a YouTube channel if you’re interested in looking at critical responses to Abrahamic religions, the biggest reason Paganism is better than Abrahamism. So I know you don’t like to get into the controversy that is not the goal but I am interested in giving like, in your research what would you say is the biggest reason that Paganism is a better form of religion if you will or belief whatever than the Abrahamic ones.

AP: Okay so I don’t like the idea of Paganism being better because better implies that Abrahamic religions are worse and I don’t like to define Paganism in that kind of opposition. So I could say that what Pagans find in Paganism that they did not find in Abrahamic religion. So I would put it more in terms of why would somebody, that is born in a country or in a family that is, for instance, Christian which is what happens more often with Pagans, why would they detach themselves from Christianity? What they find in Paganism,. what they didn’t find in Christianity? Which doesn’t make Paganism better but it’s just something that some people find is missing, for them, in Christianity, which is different as a concept. So Pagans tend to feel that in Paganism they find a contact with the world, they find that the sense of connection with the divine that is more direct, they don’t have the idea of sins, you don’t have a god that judges you don’t have the idea that the God is transcendent. So there are some people that enter Paganism and define themselves as Pagans because they like that idea of being in direct contact with the divine and being connected to nature in a way that is meaningful and sacred and to experience the pleasures that you have in life as something that is part of the divine and that is sacred rather than something that is sinful.

And also Magick, of course, plays a role for some Pagans. The idea that you can practice Magick and that is possible and it can even be integral to your religious practice, is also something that appeals to some Pagans. So I’d say that overall the sense of not following a dogma, having direct contact with the divine and that you achieve, even from through your contact with nature or with deities or with spirits, the sense that you don’t have the perception of sins and a very standardized ethics or morality. You don’t have a hell, where you go to if you behave in not in accordance with a specific deity. You may have contrast with deities because you don’t do what pleases them. But that’s different, it’s more like having a friend that gets angry at you rather than having the creator God sending you to hell for eternity. It’s a very different concept. So I’d say that Pagans tend to be fascinated by all of these elements and also there’s the idea that Abrahamic religions tend to be very male-focused and in Paganism you have the Goddess and the Goddesses, so you have the feminine, divine feminine – you also have the divine masculine, of course. But the divine feminine is sort of something that you don’t particularly find, I would say, in Abrahamic religions and it is quite prevalent. In fact, I was, yesterday, at the Goddess Temple in Glastonbury and you know, the figure of the Goddess was, of course, featured as the primary deity in that specific context but you also have the forms of Paganism that focus solely on the goddess-like Dianic forms of Paganism. But mostly Pagans are about balance between the feminine and the masculine, these two principles in reality and the Goddesses and the Gods and there are also deities that are, you know, not just one or the other but a mixture of the two so they could be seen as two polar opposites on a spectrum rather than just either-or.

DL: That’s awesome that yeah, those are plenty of reasons I think. Personally, I would say Paganism sounds more interesting than Abrahamic ones.

Thank you for that super-chat Mr Monster, as an atheistic Pagan I believe the personalities of Gods are real, I just don’t have evidence that Gods exist but I do believe in some spiritual aspects.

AP: Then I would say that you are not an atheist, you are Nihilist. [Laughter] You don’t believe in the existence of God. No, sorry let me read again. So as an atheistic Pagan I believe the personalities of Gods are real, I just don’t have evidence that Gods exist but I do believe in some spiritual aspects. Oh and so you are not a Nihilist because you do believe in the existence of something. Whereas Nihilists don’t believe in the existence of anything.

DL: Right. Or at least nothing in terms of deities is what you’re saying.

AP: So but I’m not sure, it sounds to me like atheistic because there is the belief in Gods. So you are believing in Gods, those are…

DL: Yeah if he… I don’t know, I mean I can’t read his mind right but like for me for example when I watch the Hulk or I watch Iron Man or I watch Spider-Man or something and I know this fictional character has a personality in the show. I’m living it as if this is some reality to me, even though it is a fiction. For me, I don’t think, I don’t believe they exist I don’t believe in any literal sense this is. I think this is a well-put-together narrative that comes to life in my mind but I would say if that’s the angle I’m taking and I give these stories and characters personalities in my mind. I don’t believe that that is ontologically required that that would make me still atheistic. But if you’re suggesting you really believe there are personalities, there’s really something to this in the literal sense, where do you draw that line? I mean it’s kind of hard because if what comes to life is what our consciousness has made of it right? Even though I know it’s fiction and invented, let’s say, would you consider that person still an atheist if they are saying I don’t believe any of this stuff literally is true, there’s no real spirit behind all of this that’s doing these things but I can role play, I can enjoy playing along with this and it comes to life in my imagination, in my thinking but it’s not that I really believe these things are true. Do you see what I’m trying to say, it’s kind of difficult to parse out but…

AP: Yeah, I agree it’s a bit difficult. I’d say an Atheist would not believe in the existence of God or gods.

DL: Right. Simple right?

AP: Or spiritual entities perhaps.

DL: Yeah and defining what that means. Getting into exactly what that means. So I know I fall in that category but yeah, Mr Monster, I don’t know my friend. You would have to be the one who tells us where you’re at. But it’s okay either way. Whatever your beliefs are.

Constellationpegasus, modern Paganism is just like institutionalized religion – it’s fractured and has no central belief that doesn’t morph in time. Some things never change.

AP: I wouldn’t agree that it is like institutionalised religion. Well, I guess it depends. Like there are some forms of Paganism like Gardnerian Wicca that are more initiatory, they are more structured and more institutionalized. But there are, I’d say the majority of contemporary Pagans tend to have a very individually tailored, not particularly structured system. Maybe there are some common points and common patterns though. But yeah, I guess it’s a bit difficult to say whether it is like decentralised religion because which religion are we referring to?

DL: Right, it’s fractured though there are different types.

AP: Yeah, yeah it is fractured.

DL: So thank you Constellation for the super-chat. A few more here and then I want to ask my question. I’ve been holding on to one that I wanted to get your opinion on, just to go way way back. But Vaguely Agnostic with the six six six. thank you for the super-chat my friend and for being a member. Do you think Quimby, Ernest Holmes, and the New Thought Movement from the last century where they believe God is in everything would be considered Paganism?

AP: I’m not familiar with this movement, so I don’t think so though.

Thank you Craze174 do you know the plausibility of Necromancers in Judea in 30 A.D. stealing Jesus’ body to do Magic? Was that common enough to be likely? So this is outside of her speciality. However, I will be having Dr Sledge on and he might have an opinion on this because he recently did something with Religion for Breakfast on Magic and Jesus and stuff. So, I’m sure you saw that episode right?

AP: Yeah, that was very interesting. I also have an episode on whether Jesus was a Magician.

DL: But that’s a big deal, I didn’t know that. Okay, how long ago did you make that video?

AP: I think a year ago.

DL: I gotta find that. I’m gonna have to find that and watch it for sure. I did pin her YouTube channel in the chat so everybody please go subscribe to her YouTube channel. There is endless material if you want to dive deeper. Some of your questions might even get answered here.

AP: Oh here it is. “Was Jesus a Magician,” the blue one. A bit up there.

DL: Ah okay, this one right here. Let me post that in the chat so everybody, in case they don’t want to hunt, I can actually put it there so they can go and put it on your watch list or whatever. Or you can watch it as soon as we’re done here. So that you can go subscribe to her YouTube channel. But yeah, I’d be interested to hear your take on it as someone who’s in this Pagan and Magic research. So thank you Greyz for the super-chat, my friend.

All right, did we catch up? Hold on I don’t want to leave anybody hanging here. No we got one more I think and then I wanted to ask one question and then we got to let you go. Crossovermaniac, has any of these Pagans obtained any knowledge from these past live regression rituals that couldn’t get, that I suspect, that they couldn’t get any other way.

AP: Yeah, Pagans believe so. They believe that by gaining knowledge about past lives they are able to better understand aspects of this life that are otherwise unexplainable or in some cases recurring patterns in their lives and when they recall a previous life, when a death pattern either originated or when it was particularly prevalent, that allows them to have that pattern sort of dissipate, or to acknowledge it, acknowledge the reason why they believe something or do something that is otherwise inexplicable to them. Or to gain knowledge and understanding of a specific connection with another person they know. That is also something else that they would do. So I would say yes and if you’re interested in past lives I would recommend the book called “Many Lives Many Masters” I think it’s in English.

DL: I’ve heard of that. Yeah, who wrote that “Many Lives Many Masters.”

AP: Was it Weiser? Let me see.

DL: Yeah I think so, it’s Brian L Weiss.

AP: Yes Weiss, sorry. Okay yeah, Brian Weiss, “Many Lives Many Masters” In Italian. So I was…

DL: Is he in the Paganism, like shtick here was he just writing about like the idea of past lives.

AP: No he’s writing about the idea of past lives and his experiences as a psychotherapist and how the remembering of past lives helped, you know, a specific patient that had many psychological issues and by recalling elements from past lives she slowly healed from these issues. But yeah, just in case people are interested in past lives that’s an interesting book to read and it’s written like a novel. So it’s an easy read.

DL: It’s a fun one, I suspect.

AP: Yeah I think so. I think it’s easy to read.

DL: I’ve been waiting for my question, if I may, just because what interests me about Paganism and nature worship is, when I studied religions and getting into trying to understand like how these things developed when you go far enough back before what we call polytheism, there seemed to be nature worship and I wanted to ask you as someone who studies contemporary Paganism. That doesn’t mean you haven’t read and researched the history of these ideas and are aware of how far back some of this stuff goes. Would you say that Paganism, maybe not in its contemporary form but maybe there’s a kernel or a basis to Paganism that is the oldest form of world religion that we know of? Would you say that it connects itself to ancient nature worship which precedes these anthropomorphised and personified deities the way that religions developed with polytheism than monotheism etc.?

AP: So this is a question this is something – that a lot of practitioners like to think is true even and maybe especially with Shamanism, you know, the idea Shamanism is the proto-religion, that is the first form of religion and then before the institutionalized, dogmatic religions came to be. But I would say that even though there are elements of nature-worshipping in ancient times and before the advent of Abrahamic religions, I wouldn’t say it’s the oldest religion just because it is a claim that, as an academic, it’s something that you cannot really prove in any way that it is the oldest religion. So you can say there are elements in Paganism that you find in ancient times, in pre-Christian times and even, you know, way before that. But yeah, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that Paganism is the oldest religion. It’s a claim that can be a belief on the part of practitioners and some practitioners do believe that, but it is not something that a scholar could state with any kind of evidence because it’s not something that you can study, you know, from the prehistoric times until now and find a direct historical link that would say Paganism is the most ancient, is the oldest religious form. It’s not feasible as research, so it can only be speculation but I could say that there are elements of Pagan Witchcraft and Paganism that you’ll definitely find in pre-Christian religions and in the oldest religious forms that have been reported in archaeology and history.

DL: Thank you for that. Wonderful answer to my question.

AP: Very academic.

DL: Yes, very careful, I get it and I respect that. We have two more super chats. No more super chats please, cause I gotta let her go.

Are you aware if Paganism was present within the factions of the, I do not know how to pronounce this, Guelfs and Ghibellines, shameless Masked Scholar plug, everyone, check it out.

AP: No, I’m not aware of that.

DL: I don’t know when this is either that’s another thing that might…

AP: Maybe around the 13th century because I think in Dante Alighieri’s “The Divine Comedy” they feature, the Guelfs and Ghibellines, which I’m more familiar with the Italian names.

DL: Okay, Shameless, Masked Scholar plug. Everyone check it out. Okay, I don’t know where that is to check it out but I may be missing something here in the super-chat. Is this someone you know or something or you don’t know, who this is? No okay, I appreciate the super-chat. Last one and then we’ll let you go.

Here CrossoverManiac have you heard of the Christ Myth theory, pagan/Christian parallels and have you watched part one of the Zeitgeist movie?

AP: Yeah, I have watched the Zeitgeist movie, the part one and I think it is the quintessence of Perennialism. [Laughter]

DL: Parallelomania is what she’s saying, so yeah, I think so.

AP: Yeah, Perennialism, I don’t know if your viewers are familiar with what Perennialism is.

DL: Are you saying… Oh sorry, go ahead and tell us. What I thought you said Parallelomania meaning, I think you were thinking Parallelomania.

AP: But well, it kind of it has a resemblance to that. Okay, it’s called Perennialism and it’s the belief that all Gods come from one God and all traditions have one core truth, and Perennialism is an element that you find a lot in New Age movements. Among Pagans, it’s very common, I think among those who practice Magic, Witchcraft and are interested in Esotericism. So they would say that Lilith is the same as a deity from a completely different culture, time and place because they have certain elements in common and so the underlying assumption is that there are, you know, different deities are one God. So the idea that all the Gods are actually one God all the Goddesses are actually one Goddess and all the traditions in history, the religious traditions in history underlie one core truth. And so you need to find the patterns and the commonalities and once you have found them then you have the proof that you have found that underlying truth that is there across different traditions and it is just masked and layered by cultural elements. Now, this is a belief that a lot of practitioners have and that influence their practices but it is the exact opposite of what we do in academia. Because in academia we value greatly the context, the historical context, the place, all the differences and the nuances. So it is a belief that people can have and nobody can oppose that but in academia, we have the exact opposite outlook on things. So even if there is a very specific difference, like in ancient Rome, you would have that different cities would have different Dianas, for instance, which now is, you know, you find it with the Madonna. So you have different Madonnas from different cities and they all have different characteristics and things that you can ask them to do. So the specifics, you know, the differences, the nuances, the complexity is highly valued in academic scholarship, in academic work. So it’s the exact opposite. Instead of finding the things to put them all together and lump different deities together to say this one deity, you do the exact opposite, you unpack every deity, every entity so that you can understand all the nuances and complexities that are related and interrelated with the cultural context, with the time, with the place. So Zeitgeist is the quintessence of that Perennialism.

DL: Well put. I am so glad that I shut up because you really did a number. I was thinking you were just saying oh it’s just a Parallelomania, which is related to that where it’s like we’re going to make chorus as Jesus and Jesus is this god and that god and this god yeah and everybody, you know, they are all the same. Yeah, that doesn’t mean there aren’t themes, that there aren’t common tropes but that’s also scholarly to say, okay, maybe there are tropes, maybe there’s a religious holiday or time of the year where something gets celebrated but even then you have to parse out and understand that each culture has a different meaning to some of this stuff. There’s a lot of stuff to look at, the differences and not try to fit the square into the circle and you know.

AP: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it’s important to identify common patterns but it is also important to identify the contextual elements because otherwise you flatten the complexity and you lose all the nuances that are behind a specific deity or entity or cultural or religious phenomenon and that is important. The complexity is highly valued in academic analysis and scholarship.

DL: Thank you so much for this. This has been a blast and Jocelyne says, I love Angela so much. Gotta meet more people like her. Thank you, Jocelyne. Yeah, she is awesome. I didn’t know what to expect because this is our first episode and we were planning it and we had some good questions from the audience and you know this was a blast. There’s so much knowledge in there, that you’ve learned, I’m sure that we didn’t get to unpack it today. The least I can do is to ask everybody please, I did comment on this video specifically on Jesus’ magic. But her YouTube channel, I did pin it in the comment section. If you would please comment after this episode, Angela, on the live and I will pin the comment at the top so everyone can find you so easily and they can go subscribe you can also support her on her Patreon where she does a lot of work you can private message her that way you can even have one-on-ones with her. If you want to talk to her in private. Different things you can help support her, she is a scholar in the field she has acquired a PhD, you know, Bachelor’s, Master’s, PhD. She will be hopefully publishing her dissertation sometime this summer or by fall maybe. Maybe by winter or something like that, you know, it’s a lot of work. You can also if you don’t like Patreon, you can one-time donate to her through PayPal. So these are ways to help your scholarly friends if you find a scholar on YouTube that you love and enjoy or you want to pick their brain or whatever, these are ways to support them and I think everything’s headed online. Anyways, so jump on it.

Is there anything about your Patreon or your YouTube you would like to mention?

AP: Yeah, I’m particularly proud of my Patreon community because we have a private Discord server, there’s a book club that is led by Andrew, my first patron, who is very active in the community. And we have monthly chats and monthly lectures for the Magus up level Patrons. So I’m particularly proud of that community because there are a lot of brilliant, brilliant people and I really like our conversations. We go quite in-depth when it comes to analysing esoteric topics and you know, there’s a high level of conversation going on there. So if you are you know if you only want to support my work PayPal is fine, if you want to enter an amazing community because, as I said, I’m really proud of my Patreon community, then I would recommend pledging to my Patreon so that you can get to know the other people that are there.

DL: Thank you so much I really appreciate that and you know, just letting everybody know if you want to support us here and what we do as well MythVision I have a community of Patreon members there as well we communicate often and you can ask questions. If you have academics in your mind that you want to see, possibly, get interviewed on this channel, that’s a way to support us. And I can private message with you and email and try to make some of these academics show up on the channel because oftentimes what happens, Angela, is like I don’t remember like I’m one person right? I can’t know all of the different scholars and many people in my chat are far brighter than I am and they’ll be like, hey have you heard of this scholar. I’m like I’ve never heard of the scholar what do you mean? So they’ll private message me on my Patreon and they’ll recommend and they’ll give me ideas and stuff and I’m like, okay cool. So we have a way of direct communication and stuff and I suspect it’s the same for you on your Patreon. Like people can communicate with you and yes, ask questions or have you ever heard of this what do you think of that all that good stuff.

AP: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, if you’re interested just pledge to my Patreon. I’d be happy to welcome you.

DL: Thank you so much. Any final words to someone out there who might be struggling or they don’t know what to think. That just any positive words you’d like to give to people. I always do this, by the way, don’t feel like I’m calling you out. I always at the end try to get any final words you want to say to somebody right now, who might be struggling. I don’t know.

AP: Something that has been attributed to Galileo Galilei and it’s a quote that I really like that says, “Everything is connected by invisible ties. You cannot pick a flower without upsetting a star.” And it gives me the sense that everything is interconnected and that you know everything that is happening in our life goes through cycles but it is part of something wider.

DL: Thank you so much ladies and gentlemen. We are MythVision.